Yuri Rebalance Patch (Community) Changelog

[[CC] RaVaGe]

1 hour ago, XXxPrePxX said:

From a scientific background it's significantly easier to change one (or very few) variables and see what happens compared to changing a ton of variables at once and seeing what happens. 

I'm having an impossible task of explaining to all of you multiple times at this point that this patch has been in development for over a month prior to the release.
It started with minor edits, to the magnetron and then to mastermind, then to disk... etc

Here, let me quote myself again.

On 11/23/2018 at 9:12 AM, RaVaGe said:

That's how all those changes came to be, just because they are presented to you in a bunch doesn't mean I just pulled them out of my ...

 

1 hour ago, XXxPrePxX said:

My key changes to Yuri would be something like:

These are already included and tackled.

So far neither of you have contributed anything constructive.

Besides assumptions based on the fact that you weren't part of the long and very demotivating development process, it takes a long time to get people to test, a lot of players would rather troll, flame and give false feedback and also tell other players to avoid taking part in testing.

[reflexion]

21 minutes ago, RaVaGe said:

I'm having an impossible task of explaining to all of you multiple times at this point that this patch has been in development for over a month prior to the release.
It started with minor edits, to the magnetron and then to mastermind, then to disk... etc

Here, let me quote myself again.

 

These are already included and tackled.

So far neither of you have contributed anything constructive.

Besides assumptions based on the fact that you weren't part of the long and very demotivating development process, it takes a long time to get people to test, a lot of players would rather troll, flame and give false feedback and also tell other players to avoid taking part in testing.

 

You didn't understand the point.
Let me ask you several things, maybe you will understand what me and ron want to point out:
1) How many games do you have absolved on each setting, on each little different patch, on each little changes?
2) All of your changes give you a shitload of thousand new circumstances in the game, which leads to new situations and maybe some unwanted effects.
3) Do you regognized all effects of your various changes to every possible unit, fraction, situation etc.?

You talk about one month of development...
Do you test the effects also on 2v2, on all maps, etc?
How many different players test these settings?
How many hours of testing did you use for this MAJOR CHANGES? In one month it could not be more than 50+ hours i guess. Have you analyzed all potential outcomes and mistakes?
Question again, how many players have tested this MAJOR CHANGES? Only you and a friend, or at least 5+ players?

 

I recommend you, in case of the small community, to small steps instead of such MAJOR CHANGES. You can not handle such big changes alone or in a group of 2 by one month testing (a little bit).

See it as positive critics, we want to help you. Small steps are better to control than large steps.

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by reflexion

[[CC] RaVaGe]

1 hour ago, reflexion said:

1) How many games do you have absolved on each setting, on each little different patch, on each little changes?

Usually below 10 or until a major advantage or disadvantage is identified.

 

1 hour ago, reflexion said:

2) All of your changes give you a shitload of thousand new circumstances in the game, which leads to new situations and maybe some unwanted effects.
3) Do you regognized all effects of your various changes to every possible unit, fraction, situation etc.?

Do I look like I'm omniscient? This is not realistically possible and clearly evident in the result of the original game's design.

 

1 hour ago, reflexion said:

You talk about one month of development...
Do you test the effects also on 2v2, on all maps, etc?

When possible then yes I do.

 

1 hour ago, reflexion said:

How many different players test these settings?

6-8 competitive players who are active and open-minded enough to actually test something like this without trolling.

 

1 hour ago, reflexion said:

How many hours of testing did you use for this MAJOR CHANGES?

The number of hours it took me to adapt to playing Yuri's Revenge coming from XWIS RA2, combined with feedback from most of the community, including Yuri players themselves.

 

1 hour ago, reflexion said:

Have you analyzed all potential outcomes and mistakes?
Question again, how many players have tested this MAJOR CHANGES? Only you and a friend, or at least 5+ players?

Already answered, there's no need to repeat yourself, I don't have the memory of a goldfish, I hope you don't either.

 

1 hour ago, reflexion said:

I recommend you, in case of the small community, to small steps instead of such MAJOR CHANGES.

Yes, you already mentioned this and I've taken note of this to recall that this is exactly how it was built up.

 

1 hour ago, reflexion said:

we want to help you

Then go ahead and actually test this patch in the game instead of repeating yourself endlessly in an hope that someone would agree with you.
I'd appreciate some actionable feedback instead of hypothetical criticism which is all you've provided so far.

 

1 hour ago, reflexion said:

See it as positive critics

So far you've wasted an hour my time collectively with your posts, I will ignore future hypothesis based criticism and plain complaining.

Edited November 29, 2018 by RaVaGe

[reflexion]

1 hour ago, RaVaGe said:

Usually below 10 or until a major advantage or disadvantage is identified.

Same player? This is a weak sample to identify any failures or mis-balances.

1 hour ago, RaVaGe said:

Do I look like I'm omniscient? This is not realistically possible and clearly evident in the result of the original game's design.

No, but this is my argument for changes in smaller steps.
More control, more details, more realistic.
Especially with the circumstance that we have a small sample of players, games and testing environment.
 

1 hour ago, RaVaGe said:

When possible then yes I do.

Why do you dont give yourself more time and maybe also other players?
Do we have a time limit on patching completely through the game until Jan19?

1 hour ago, RaVaGe said:

6-8 competitive players who are active and open-minded enough to actually test something like this without trolling.

You have do underline the term "open-minded", because a lot of people are open-minded for balance changes for years.
I already told you several times that i highly support the idea of balance changes, but not in this fast and extensive manner. This is a case of experience that this has a high chance to fail or lead to a complete different game, which should not be the goal. Do we working on balance changes or on a complete different game with different game-mechanics?
 

1 hour ago, RaVaGe said:

The number of hours it took me to adapt to playing Yuri's Revenge coming from XWIS RA2, combined with feedback from most of the community, including Yuri players themselves.

Thats ok and good effort!

1 hour ago, RaVaGe said:

Already answered, there's no need to repeat yourself, I don't have the memory of a goldfish, I hope you don't either.

Is there some critcs not allowed? Why do you affront me, i want to discuss with you in a positive manner and not insulting each other.

 

1 hour ago, RaVaGe said:

Yes, you already mentioned this and I've taken note of this to recall that this is exactly how it was built up.

Thats not only my recommendation, but rather more user recommended here to work in smaller steps. Yor answer is: No i do in my way, this is my project etc. You have to consider again, that is not a change in your personal client, but rather a official implementation on the cncnet-client. So therefore this is no longer your project alone, but rather a community project in the administration of the cncnet-admins. Therefore, we have also to discuss the procedure how we will change it (in small steps, big steps etc.), but you decide this all alone and reject all kind of (positive and negative) critics by your own.

Thats the reason why i recommend a administation by grant, because cncnet also do not grow from one to another day, its a continous and slow development and the reasons for it are repeatetly given. So, can we discuss about the process or it is not allowed in case of your ego?

 

 

1 hour ago, RaVaGe said:

Then go ahead and actually test this patch in the game instead of repeating yourself endlessly in an hope that someone would agree with you.
I'd appreciate some actionable feedback instead of hypothetical criticism which is all you've provided so far.

 

I already testet several games with this patch and my critcs are not made up out of thin air. This is why i criticise thats are no longer balance-changes, but rather major changes in the gameplay of yuri. Some of these changes are miss the goal of "balance changes" and are more "extension" in the game mechanics. Where will we end up? In a Mental Omega scenario?

So, this is not a hypothetical feedback from my side, its more a feedback against the patching process. AGAIN, not against the idea of patching, but rather the extend of changes by calling it "Yuri balance changes"

 

1 hour ago, RaVaGe said:

So far you've wasted an hour my time collectively with your posts, I will ignore future hypothesis based criticism and plain complaining.

 If you are not capable for critics on an "official" patch on cncnet, than start a project by your own. This affects all players of cncnet and therefore everyone should be working on it. If you see wasting time, because you are fixed on your own idea than i personally see no sense in giving critics. All players here in this forum who recommended to work in smaller steps you reply in a harsh way and didn't argue. The only things you say to this recommendations: i know what im doing, we testet it and so on.
So, is this a personal project, where critics on the process is not allowed? Why is it then official implemented on the client if only you have the sovereignty about this?

But ok, if you ignore me and some other players which are criticised in a similar direction, then you are absolutey right and it makes no sense to discuss about this. Therefore, ignore me and only listen to positive critics which are in line with your own opinion.

Edited November 29, 2018 by reflexion

[[CC] RaVaGe]

1 hour ago, reflexion said:

If you see wasting time, because you are fixed on your own idea than i personally see no sense in giving critics.

I've already involved all interested players and parties in testing and development and published successfully. 
I'm sorry that you weren't there to see the enduring process and the amount of effort it took to reach this point, but I refuse to listen to your slandering.

Edited November 29, 2018 by RaVaGe

[CekaJ (Jake)]

Idk enough about boomers to discuss boomers but in general after discussion with Sunny, Mustachex, Buffalo, Marko and Marsh this is my understanding of Yuri USING "QUICK MATCH" SETTINGS: (Skip to the end for a tl;dr)

Soviet vs Yuri in a vacuum:

Iron Curtain + Drones > Masterminds (even with gat support)

Desolators > Gat mag combo, Genetic Mutator Brutes

Flack Tracks > Discs, Fodder for Yuri psychic Towers (even more so if u bring some conscripts)

Rhinos > Slave Miners, buildings

Terror Drone > Chaos Drone

Nuclear Missile > Base defenses/ Buildings

War Miners are good fodder for gat bunkers and magnetrons

Industrial plant can compete with genetic mutator income until map runs out of ore, even then it can if there is enough ore drills

*This is all using quickmatch settings. If super weapons are turned off then soviet has no answer to Gat + Mastermind combo making Yuri overpowered vs soviet.* (and probably Allied would be overpowered as well)

 

Discs > Desolators

Masterminds > Rhinos

Gat mag > Flack tracks, Rhino

Psychic Dominator > Still units, Base defenses

Genetic Mutator > Industrial plant only once the map runs dry of ore and assuming there are few drills

 

Allied vs Yuri in a vacuum:

Mirage Tanks > Mastermind, miners, brutes in moderate numbers

Grizzly and or Mirage + Harrier combo strike > Gats and mags in low numbers (Target mags with harriers so the mags must turn around and run; at the same time run in with grizz/ mirage to close distance.)

Battleforts with Gi > Gats and mags in high numbers

Ggi ifv > Discs, support in killing vulnerable masterminds

2 harriers > Gat bunker

Prism tanks > Base defenses

Tanya > Vulnerable Yuri miners

Ore purifier > Genetic Mutator until map runs dry unless there is enough drills (If the yuri keeps the brutes youll have more money to fight them. If he grinds them then his masterminds will be more exposed to mirage)

Seal Fort > Mass Brutes

Weatherstorm > Gat bunkers, Base defenses in general, Force Shield (Assuming 1 Yuri Lab), Slave miners (Eye of storm can kill 1-2 miners) 

Chronosphere + Weatherstorm combo > Buildings/ Superweapons, Base defenses, Force Shield (Assuming 1 Yuri Lab)

Robot tanks are supplemental support units and are good in low numbers if a specific situation calls for them. (Mastermind/Mindcontrol heavy rush before allied lab. Or to strike vulnerable high value yuri buildings like a battle lab/ war factory/ mcv even while they are defended by masterminds/ psychic towers.)

 

Masterminds + Brutes > Mirage Tanks

Gats and mags in low numbers > Grizzly tanks/ Mirage tanks without harrier support

Gats and mags in high numbers > Grizzly tanks/ Mirage tanks

Mags + Masterminds > Battle Forts

Psychic Dominator > Still units, Base Defenses

Genetic Mutator > Infantry in general, Brutes to support masterminds, Ore purifier once the map runs dry of ore assuming there are few drills

Gats > Paradrops

Brutes > Robot Tanks

Lashers > Robot Tanks

Gat bunkers > Mirage/ Grizzly Tanks

 

Tl;DR: Unless I'm somehow drastically wrong about all this even after discussions with: Sunny, Mustachex, Buffalo, Marko and Marsh we don't need this patch. We need educated players. Instead of this patch, focus energy on educating players through:

• "Vs Yuri Strategies" forum posts
• "Vs Yuri Strategies" Video guides
• Links in the main Cncnet client to these forum posts and videos
• Links in the custom game lobby to these forum posts and videos

This in my opinion would be the fastest and easiest way to inform anyone who has an issue with the Yuri faction; not a patch altering literally 14 separate units/ buildings.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by CekaJ (Jake)

[reflexion]

9 hours ago, RaVaGe said:

I've already involved all interested players and parties in testing and development and published successfully. 
I'm sorry that you weren't there to see the enduring process and the amount of effort it took to reach this point, but I refuse to listen to your slandering.

What are interested players? Do they have enough experience?
I see a lot of pro players with huge critics on the major changes.
But ok, we are here on a point where you dont want to answer to a specific question, while you refer to some not known player sample and testing area:
I want to know why we have to patch so much, which leads to a huge change in the "game-mechanics", instead of patching the few points which are more ore less obvious?

 

 

45 minutes ago, CekaJ (Jake) said:

Tl;DR: Unless I'm somehow drastically wrong about all this even after discussions with: Sunny, Mustachex, Buffalo, Marko and Marsh we don't need this patch. We need educated players. Instead of this patch, focus energy on educating players through:

• "Vs Yuri Strategies" forum posts
• "Vs Yuri Strategies" Video guides
• Links in the main Cncnet client to these forum posts and videos
• Links in the custom game lobby to these forum posts and videos

This in my opinion would be the fastest and easiest way to inform anyone who has an issue with the Yuri faction; not a patch altering literally 14 separate units/ buildings.

 

 

I absolutely confirm your intention, except 1-2 things:
 

gen mutator -> We also have to consider some 2v2 and late game situations, where we have to balance this infinite money away.
The goal ist, to balance yuri in such a way, that (in case of no-SW) all fractions are close to each other. Without SW Soviet has a major disadvantage.
Magnetrons -> maybe change the possibility that a magnetron can't lift up a miner in meanwhile he is unload.
Psy dominator -> maybe a little delay like the SW of the other fractions.

In general, im with you and the others. We have not more to change than some few points on yuri to bring the general balance closer together, its not expedient to change such a lot things where we also change the standard game mechanics of a fraction which leads to a complete "new fraction".

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by reflexion

[CekaJ (Jake)]

2 hours ago, reflexion said:

I absolutely confirm your intention, except 1-2 things:
 

gen mutator -> We also have to consider some 2v2 and late game situations, where we have to balance this infinite money away.
The goal ist, to balance yuri in such a way, that (in case of no-SW) all fractions are close to each other. Without SW Soviet has a major disadvantage.
Magnetrons -> maybe change the possibility that a magnetron can't lift up a miner in meanwhile he is unload.
Psy dominator -> maybe a little delay like the SW of the other fractions.

In general, im with you and the others. We have not more to change than some few points on yuri to bring the general balance closer together, its not expedient to change such a lot things where we also change the standard game mechanics of a fraction which leads to a complete "new fraction".

 

There are 4 things you must understand though:

1. Yuri's Revenge is meant to be played with Superweapons on OR soviet tier 3 is massively underpowered
2. If Superweapons are off then not only would we have to nerf Yuri, we would have to also nerf Allied
3. Factions have different advantages
4. Manetrons dropping miners on refineries is fair in context

 

1 & 2: Either Yuri's revenge is meant to be played with Superweapons on or Soviet is underpowered. When you think of the strongest tier 3 units Allied, Soviet, and Yuri have; you think Battlefortresses, Masterminds, and Apocalypse Tanks. Anyone with eyeballs can see that Apocalypse tanks lose to Battlefortresses and Masterminds. The issue then is: What does soviet have that can beat Battlefortresses and Masterminds without superweapons? The answer to that is nothing in many cases. If you compare each faction's arsenal while assuming equivalent number of war factories + all tech structures but no superweapons, then soviet has nothing to compete with the battlefortresses and masterminds. If superweapons are on though in that situation then soviet can use the iron curtain to chase down battlefortresses, and iron curtain drones to eliminate masterminds. Therefore either soviet's tier 3 IS the Iron Curtain (proving my point that this game is meant to be played with superweapons on) or Soviet is underpowered. Are we going to buff soviet so we can play without superweapons? Are we going to nerf both yuri AND allied so soviet can play without superweapons? OR are we going to play with superweapons on and change nothing balancing all 3 factions.

3. Factions have different advantages. For example: Allied can teleport stuff large distances. Should we let soviet do that as well? Soviet can make things invincible. Should we let allied do that as well? Yuri can have unlimited money. Should we let the other factions do that as well? Maybe it turns out that in 2v2 on certain maps having an unlimited money late game is good? Is that by nature overpowered? Is good overpowered? Just because there is in infinite to something does not mean that it is too good for this game. All it means is that their opponent (if not Yuri) needs to be proactive. There is nothing wrong with pro-activity. AND on maps with more ore drills the ore purifier and industrial plant stay even with the mutator in the long run.

4. The magnetron dropping miners on refineries is fair if Allied and soviet can do similarly powered things. Soviet's desolators and drones can literally prevent a tier 2 (no lab) yuri from ever winning. Allied gets free paradrops forever, has the most harass options available, and has arguably better tech.

Dominator instant casting doesnt make or break yuri. Yeah its good but is it overpowered? It's just different. Also there is no way to justify it mind controlling units if it had a start up time since predictions would need to be made. You would have to completely change it to be basically a nuclear missile.

 

If people just learned to play with and against yuri there would literally be no complaining. If yuri has some power then so be it; so does soviet and so does allied.

All I can ask is: Have you ever actually tried to fight against yuri and tried to learn how to beat it?????????

[reflexion]

1 hour ago, CekaJ (Jake) said:

1. Yuri's Revenge is meant to be played with Superweapons on OR soviet tier 3 is massively underpowered

I have therefore a different perspective. Because its also highly map dependent. On dune patrol i dont need really SW as Soviet against allied.
Further, the two fractions have strenght and a few weaknesses. We compare two equal level players as initial framework.
Soviet is in the start in favor against allied. In all cases the soviet can more pressure, has the better price-performance-ratio. The Soviet can control better the map in the beginning as an Allied.
This is all seen in the context of two pro players which are on equal level... We all know that the game is based on making mistakes

Then we have other factors incoming:
- The Allied disadvantage is slightly reducing if the map is bigger (there are some special cases, but in general we can say that)
- also the variety on the map is often favorable for allied, in contrast to some standard maps like dune patrol
-

True, without SW the Allied have definately the late game. But this is the trade-off to the early game disadvantages. But this doesn't mean that an allied can't win in the early game or a Soviet player can win in the late game (mistakes were made). But the general balance doesn't remains the same over the game. Allied get stronger and Soviet weaker (in case of no SW). For competitive games, the SW balance this pretty good, whereby the stats over the last 15 years show a slight advantage for Soviet. But in my opinion is the reason for that the more complex and more difficult gameplay of Allieds and fails are more punished. But the balance is changing between these two fractions over time and depending slightly on maps. Nevertheless is none of the fractions without a chance in certain states.
 

1 hour ago, CekaJ (Jake) said:

2. If Superweapons are off then not only would we have to nerf Yuri, we would have to also nerf Allied

 

No, because Allieds have a weaker early game than yuri. The Allied Yuri balance is not the problem like the Soviet Yuri balance.
Yuri have at least a equal early game as Soviet, but Yuri is unbeatable for Soviet in the late game without SW, thats the huge problem.

1 hour ago, CekaJ (Jake) said:

 

 

Quote

3. Factions have different advantages

True and absolute cofirm this staement.
But the Problem is, the adventage of Yuri without SW against Soviet is tremendous.
The Soviet - Allied balance change over time, but every fraction has the chance to win on every state of the game. Thats much better balanced than Yuri - Soviet overall.

 

1 hour ago, CekaJ (Jake) said:

4. Manetrons dropping miners on refineries is fair in context

Maybe. But the magnetrons are the big problem why Soviet have clearly no chance against Yuri if he is teched. Magnetrons are the heavy counter against the Soviet massive army. Soviet has no unit which has extrem long range like Allied with prisms mirage etc. or units which further shoot in the air on the target.
Brains, Discs etc. its no problem for the Soviet to handle it, bute magnetrons are paralyzes everything of the soviet player. With SW this is a reduced scenario, but further on a high advantage from the yuri player against the soviet?

I am not for many and hard balance changes, but i guess to find a solution with the magnetron would perfectly balance this game with and without SW.
But im open for discussions and tests


Finally, im absolut ur opinion. We should not change many things, expept one-two things with the yuri magnetron and the inf money. Maybe we will get a ClanMatch system later on, so we have to balance out also games without SW and with 2 ore more fractions  (Yuri+Allied vs. Soviet+Allied for example) for 2v2 or 3v3. maybe also tech-sharing could be considered with a eye in a future (bf+yuri clones).

True, we can let the game as it is, because its very good balanced. But i guess, a slight adjusting on these 2 componets of yuri would be give as more perfection. If its not working we can reject it easily, or?

Thanks for your good reply!
 

Edited November 30, 2018 by reflexion

[a1nthony]

Ok did a quick read and Cekaj no offense but yuri have several “op” / unrealistically powerful points to them that need to be changed. Just because you haven’t played a true top tier yuri player doesn’t mean these problems don’t exist. The main problems are infinite money and yuri navy. There are some other OP points to a magnetron u like lists so here.

1)infinite money:

yuri auto wins grinding games just because they can continuously rebuild and nobody else can. All they need to do is camp until resources are low. Maps like hidden valley and offense defense come to mind first.

2)Boomer Sub:

A boomer sub can pop half of your base before the first American paradrop is ready..  even if you build afc before war (which again you auto lose)

 

3)magnetRon:

Ctrl shift is dangerous and it doesn’t take skill, find someone who numbers their magnetrons and your done. Any maps with a bunch of trees or cliffs automatically add to magnetrons advantage... they can pop any unit in one hit, sometimes two units. And they easily dodge harrier strikes, not to mention they work in perfect unison with the yuri army.

 

 Sorry if you think infinite money should be a part of yuri then you must not play at a high level.

[reflexion]

45 minutes ago, a1nthony said:

2)Boomer Sub:

A boomer sub can pop half of your base before the first American paradrop is ready..  even if you build afc before war (which again you auto lose)

 

A already proposed a solution for this in a former post.
1) Maybe its possible that you only can use the torpedos of the boomers until you have a tech center. After you build a tech, the missiles are availiable.
2) Maybe we can change something on the camouflage technology of the boomers, but if we can realize point 1 i guess point 2 is more or less obsolet.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by reflexion

[[CC] RaVaGe]

10 hours ago, reflexion said:

I want to know why we have to patch so much, which leads to a huge change in the "game-mechanics", instead of patching the few points which are more ore less obvious?

Someone has agreed to do an interview with me and then type it up.
I'll explain each and every change.

Edited November 30, 2018 by RaVaGe

[CekaJ (Jake)]

10 hours ago, a1nthony said:

Ok did a quick read and Cekaj no offense but yuri have several “op” / unrealistically powerful points to them that need to be changed. Just because you haven’t played a true top tier yuri player doesn’t mean these problems don’t exist. The main problems are infinite money and yuri navy. There are some other OP points to a magnetron u like lists so here.

1)infinite money:

yuri auto wins grinding games just because they can continuously rebuild and nobody else can. All they need to do is camp until resources are low. Maps like hidden valley and offense defense come to mind first.

2)Boomer Sub:

A boomer sub can pop half of your base before the first American paradrop is ready..  even if you build afc before war (which again you auto lose)

 

3)magnetRon:

Ctrl shift is dangerous and it doesn’t take skill, find someone who numbers their magnetrons and your done. Any maps with a bunch of trees or cliffs automatically add to magnetrons advantage... they can pop any unit in one hit, sometimes two units. And they easily dodge harrier strikes, not to mention they work in perfect unison with the yuri army.

 

 Sorry if you think infinite money should be a part of yuri then you must not play at a high level.

Read why we don't need a patch in my post before my last; the one talking about yuri vs soviet and yuri vs allied

[a1nthony]

On 11/30/2018 at 6:01 PM, CekaJ (Jake) said:

Read why we don't need a patch in my post before my last; the one talking about yuri vs soviet and yuri vs allied

Fair enough

[heldro]

Jake, like always you are thinking in vacuums and absolutes.

[FlyingMustache]

I don't care about this as an option. But before applying to qm, it should be proven yuri is op on qm settings first. Those who claim he's op on qm settings need to play him this month and reach the top fairly easily.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

38 minutes ago, FlyingMustache said:

But before applying to qm, it should be proven yuri is op on qm settings first.

I've spent the last half a year balancing maps and the map pool to make playing vs Yuri easier.
To support your method as evidence all of those maps should be removed for the 'data gathering' month so you can get your proof unedited.

I made the patch because I'm not willing to spend full time two weeks of a month editing and testing maps to ensure fair odds to all three sides.
The patch is aimed at allowing a wider map pool dynamic as opposed to a centralised large flat map type.

[FlyingMustache]

2 hours ago, RaVaGe said:

I've spent the last half a year balancing maps and the map pool to make playing vs Yuri easier.
To support your method as evidence all of those maps should be removed for the 'data gathering' month so you can get your proof unedited.

I made the patch because I'm not willing to spend full time two weeks of a month editing and testing maps to ensure fair odds to all three sides.
The patch is aimed at allowing a wider map pool dynamic as opposed to a centralised large flat map type.

Yes, I know about the map edits. Though the discussion at hand assumes that the edits haven't been enough. So, why not gather data on said settings?

[[CC] RaVaGe]

1 hour ago, FlyingMustache said:

Though the discussion at hand assumes that the edits haven't been enough.

Not from my perspective.
 

The only reason for me is:

We don't have the manpower to keep making and adjusting new maps.
The QM needs regular quality map pool updates similar to SC2 to keep it from becoming too stagnant.

You can gather as much data as you want, but the fact remains that QM will only attract a specific kind of player left in its current state.

Edited December 2, 2018 by RaVaGe

[XXxPrePxX]

Also note that Mustache's assertion is simply wrong. 

You can't force players to play, and it's not a 1:1 ratio in terms of skill. If I played serious as soviets, I'd likely make top 5. If I tried to play serious as Yuri, I'd probably sit around 10-15 range. 

Does that prove the point that Yuri isn't OP? 

Hell no.

Why? Because Yuri takes a different skill-set. I've not practiced that type of skill in likely 10+ years. 

The game does have certain players that are somewhat skilled in yuri warfare. Andy is the obvious one that comes to mind, but also Leo and Reano are there too. 

And as stated in other posts -- there just isn't many yuri players around due to the climate of the last 10 years on this game... there hasn't been grounds available to play as yuri for most players. 

However, it's still worth patching and looking into due to already established reasons. 

Edited December 2, 2018 by XXxPrePxX

[[CC] RaVaGe]

Making Yuri more combatable and accessible would solve a 15 year old problem.

[sero]

This yuri Patch is only interesting for noob/average fungamer. And for ppl like you Martin. U would like to Patch everything to get a long game on allied and camp and spy all buildings LOL. 

 

So have fun with your Friends in fungames. 

[[CC] RaVaGe]

18 minutes ago, sero said:

So have fun with your Friends in fungames. 

 

I don't play 'fun games' like you, I QM 90% of my games on cncnet.

[Lucifer]

Firstly, Martin deserves the utmost respect for his efforts to give this game the boost it really needs.  

On the changes themselves... they are all the right direction imo. However, I doubt the final balancing of yuri will consist entirely of changes to yuri-- both allied and soviet could use some changes as well. And as mentioned, some special units like the tesla tank certainly could use a (rather gigantic) buff. Martin has also been working on this as well, which again, he deserves respect for. 

Now ofc you don't wanna get ahead of yourself... the original integrity of the game must be maintained... but that doesn't mean changes cant enhance the experience. 

For example, Warcrafat III just had 3 -- count them -- 3 -- patch updates just this year and that game is almost as old as YR. The community doesn't whine at each other, rather, they work together to make changes that make the game both more fun and more competitive for everyone. 

YR/ra2 is 15+years overdue for an official patch update. 

[Chrisev]

very nice!!