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RaVaGe

Yuri Rebalance Patch (Community) Changelog

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Hey Martin, thank you for all the hard work and time you spent trying to help out the community. Keep up the good work and don’t let the backlash get to you. I don’t see anyone else following through with implementation of something that has made 1000s of players leave this game. 

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People saying that Yuri was OK were obviously delusional. The only weakness of slave miner ewas sniping miners which requires investment and micro, otherwise they were even better than a ref, faster and auto-relocate (negating the problem of other factions of longer travel time as time advances). Plus they will never have the "harvester withour refinery" problem.

But having said that I dont think ythese changes are well made. "Medium" wasn'0t intended to be used on anything else but Miners.
This is an obvious mistake that NEEDS to be corrected

many weapons do LESS damage to medium than heavy.

Medium is not an intermediate between heavy and light but a special tyupe of armor.

If you want gattling tanks more durable without breaking the game make them heavy like flk trak, not Medium.

That is not the only objectioin that I have but it is the most undisputable.

I think the mastermind changes are fine.

On the other hand, are you sure +1 range for Disk doesn't actually make them even more OP?¡ This makes them better vs AA in large numbers, already their greatest strenght.

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14 hours ago, NimoStar said:

People saying that Yuri was OK were obviously delusional. The only weakness of slave miner ewas sniping miners which requires investment and micro, otherwise they were even better than a ref, faster and auto-relocate (negating the problem of other factions of longer travel time as time advances). Plus they will never have the "harvester withour refinery" problem.

But having said that I dont think ythese changes are well made. "Medium" wasn'0t intended to be used on anything else but Miners.
This is an obvious mistake that NEEDS to be corrected

many weapons do LESS damage to medium than heavy.

Medium is not an intermediate between heavy and light but a special tyupe of armor.

If you want gattling tanks more durable without breaking the game make them heavy like flk trak, not Medium.

That is not the only objectioin that I have but it is the most undisputable.

I think the mastermind changes are fine.

On the other hand, are you sure +1 range for Disk doesn't actually make them even more OP?¡ This makes them better vs AA in large numbers, already their greatest strenght.

Depends on which meta. No-SW, Yuri is op. With SW, he may not be. This is a distinction that needs to be acknowledged whenever people are casting their 2 cents.

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As it stands, the only truly viable teams are America, Yuri and Iraq ---Nor do any of the allied or sov factions have any identity other than 1 unit difference.  Forget yuri… the game itself is not balanced at all. 

Imagine logging on and seriously thinking to yourself... alright, what team should I pick? Eventually, after much consideration, you, in all seriousness, pick germany cuz they are now as legit af!  

Its been 20 years, boiiiiyyys! . Its time for some change. 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Lucifer said:

As it stands, the only truly viable teams are America, Yuri and Iraq ---Nor do any of the allied or sov factions have any identity other than 1 unit difference.  Forget yuri… the game itself is not balanced at all. 

Imagine logging on and seriously thinking to yourself... alright, what team should I pick? Eventually, after much consideration, you, in all seriousness, pick germany cuz they are now as legit af!  

Its been 20 years, boiiiiyyys! . Its time for some change. 

 

 

I’d argue a pr0 Korea is legit. Time for changes sure but I think my main points stand true in that yuri only had a few major problems. and if we are talking about restructuring the game than we can expand more on just completely changing the yuri faction. How about adding a navy, buffing special units. Adding more units (mobile gap generator was always one of my favs in convos like this)and changing unefficient units like apocalypse tank. Changes like that are good to make but they change the core of the game. I’m all for something like that, and I can’t give  enough props to Martin for executing on what he thinks is best for this game and nerfing yuri. But if you want to update everything I think u should make a poll and have veterans and skilled players put forward there thoughts I mean shave 30 seconds off of chromosphere timer, give sovs some anti BF units and long game weapons (defensive structures etc..) lol I’m sure you guys get the point.

Just off an overnigh shift excuse the long post

 

Edited by a1nthony

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On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 7:53 AM, a1nthony said:

 I think my main points stand true in that yuri only had a few major problems. 

 

I agree Yuri's OPness is exaggerated--  minor changes would make a giant difference for the better, if and only if the changes were correct.  My suggestion is to stop thinking about it as if there are only 3 factions, allieds, sov and yuri. A certain buff could be entirely unique to say, germany, for example. A cheap Harrier 850 credits perhaps? --Each team would have unique buff(s) (nothing major like new units, that's unrealistic) to make balance between factions better, more identity to each team, and perhaps, in the process of these buffs being intelligently implemented in a simple manner, balance yuri without even touching him. And for the record, korea is nowhere close to America in YR imo, but about the same in ra2. =p

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While gi’s Are super OP and America is overall better. Korea has the “double shot” glitch and a better economy means u can have more eagles fast. Have 6-8 eagles is pretty empowering when you can be aggressive on all fronts. It’s a lot easier to achieve then you’d think. But I digress, I do agree with your 3 faction arguement.  special units need to be buffed, random tweaks for different factions could be fun and generate new strategies and gameplay... that would be hard-testing tho and I think there should be a forum for discussion on this... make one? (What would you like to see in each faction) it would be pretty fun to see something like this. But I think experienced players need say In something like this, and not just one or two 

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Agreed. Input should be collected from all, especially the experienced players. However, someone we can trust would need to be in charge of the official calls. Prep seems like the perfect candidate to me.  Thoughts on that?  Ill start a forum on the topic to see how its received, might be alot of flame though.... But i mean, what would it take to get the green light from the admins for such a project?

The korea-america thing is interesting and relevant to this topic. America has planes too... which can also double shot. Its not so much America's OP paradrop that makes them better as much as it is Korea's lackthereof that makes them worse 😛

 

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I think Eagles are legit vs a soviet player, I could list the reasons why I think sometimes Korea can be better against sovs depending on skill level, but GGI ifvs really limit eagles in AvA match ups and that’s why I think America is just overall better. We can discuss VS sovs scenarios if you’d like but GGI ifvs are a killer for Korea. So I guess you’re right about America being a lot better lol. Had to talk this one out load to realize it

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In ra2 I would put america as a 9/10, korea a 8-9/10....but its not due to GGis, its due to the rocketeer count being lower cuz ur spending money on a different type of air unit ironically making ur self fall behind in air (rocketeer#s is all that matters in AvA) and also falling behind on ground cuz u don't have endless free units. Also rocketeers are exactly what you want vs planes. 

But in YR, this aspect remains the same and is only amplified by GGis.... In AvS the flak tracks are 3-4.5x more effective (ive done the math), you have a forceshield to save you from key bombing timings, siege choppers are additional anti air units, and Gis do way more damage. So I would put America as a 9/10 and korea as a 5/10 in YR.  Korea would need a decent buff to be legit imo. (in YR)

 

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Tried to play 2 identical naval games as yuri, one with this enabled and one with it disabled; and they felt like completely different games. Had to use vastly different strategies. Only bug I could find was that the AI with this enabled went crazy and just built power plants everywhere and tried to sprawl the map with them (I suspect this is because they now generate less power, and the AI constantly though it didn't had enough?)...

IMG_20181215_154153.jpg

IMG_20181215_144808.jpg

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1 hour ago, Foorack said:

I suspect this is because they now generate less power, and the AI constantly though it didn't had enough?)

Try it on an original map that comes with the cncnet client.

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1 hour ago, cypher said:

Is it possible to deactivate the player-voices on the F buttons?

This is the wrong thread to ask this.
Though I'll answer it anyway, as I did this myself, just delete or rename the taunts folder which holds the included .wav sound files.

Edited by RaVaGe
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=========================================
Updated the first post with version 1.31 change log.
=========================================

Also added reasoning notes behind changes.

 

Edited by RaVaGe
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I love the Initiate change, god they are OP.

I really liked how this patch was going at start, but with the latest patch (and the previous ones), it seems you've undone virtually every change and its starting to look like the patch makes Yuri more stronger, as compared to balanced, specifically against Soviets.

The virus buff basically negates much of the competitive strength of GB, making the faction irrelevant from a balance perspective (Virus was a short-med AI counter, Sniper was a long-range AI counter).

Slave miner balancing is fine - 1500 health is still a lot.

Gattling tank - Again, it seems you're really reluctant to make any change at all. Compared to respective Allied and Soviet (IFV, Flak), this tank is far too tanky and has far more damage. Either it should be weaker, or its range should be reduced.

Masterminds - Your changes seem to come from a perspective that masterminds are lone units. They're always surrounded by a tonne of Yuri units that all act as complete denial. Combine this with how tanky MM already are makes them far more difficult to 'surgical strike' them. MM should be a risky investment considering, not a guaranteed territorial denial.

Boomer - Again, no change to their combat ability. The biggest contention I think is that they are too good against ground. Their missiles should be limited to 1 because they can eliminate most naval threats alone. The BL requirement is not a huge deal because Yuri is going to be getting it anyway. You're only delaying a super OP unit by a minute. No balancing here.

Genetic Mutator - I like the Brute grinding nerf, but by reducing the counter by a minute, you just negated the whole point of the balancing. If Yuri players can turn slaves into brutes a minute earlier, the point of abuse still is the same?

Based on this, I don't really see the point of using this patch in games. Yuri is more or less the same.

Great work so far, though

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23 hours ago, Corvus Sidd said:

look like the patch makes Yuri more stronger, as compared to balanced, specifically against Soviets.

I tested the patch against some of the best players and Yuri had a hard time doing anything against Soviets.

 

23 hours ago, Corvus Sidd said:

The virus buff basically negates much of the competitive strength of GB, making the faction irrelevant from a balance perspective

GB is already irrelavant in the competitive scene, the whole game balance in general is quite broken.

 

23 hours ago, Corvus Sidd said:

Gattling tank - Again, it seems you're really reluctant to make any change at all.

It was changed in a way that allows Yuri players to play the same way as before, but increases vulnerabilities to infantry and terror drones.
While reducing Yuri's ability to camp with tank bunkers.

 

23 hours ago, Corvus Sidd said:

Masterminds - Your changes seem to come from a perspective that masterminds are lone units. They're always surrounded by a tonne of Yuri units that all act as complete denial.

Not always, with edits to the Magentron & Gattling Tank, it's easier to get close to the Masterminds with Terror drones, infantry and a large number of tanks.

 

23 hours ago, Corvus Sidd said:

You're only delaying a super OP unit by a minute. No balancing here.

That is the balance change, the problem was that Yuri gets Boomer Submarines too early in the game.

 

23 hours ago, Corvus Sidd said:

Genetic Mutator - I like the Brute grinding nerf, but by reducing the counter by a minute, you just negated the whole point of the balancing

The Genetic Mutator is the worst of the 3 first level super weapons.
I reduced the timer to allow Yuri to use the Mutator to counter the infantry vulnerability and use it similar to the American Paradrop Special, by being able to create brutes from slaves at the same rate.
Also Yuri would get minimal income from grinding Brutes.

 

23 hours ago, Corvus Sidd said:

Based on this, I don't really see the point of using this patch in games. Yuri is more or less the same.

Changes were aimed at competitive players, not so much at casual players who are not willing to learn the game in the first place.
However a lot of the units that casual players abuse about Yuri are nerfed, so it impacts their game a lot, though due to lack of knowledge of newer players it easily goes unnoticed.

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For all intents and purposes, creating a community patch that is designed only to accommodate competitive players is a weird flex. Why call it a community patch when you're unwilling to consider how casual and non-competitive players play the game, aka the community?

A competitive match, the BL requirement for Boomer might be substantial, but for casual players, it's just an added minute before a single submarine wipes your entire base. I think it is a bit short-sighted not to balance for the community, because a lot of casual players just want to play a game and not be frustrated by Yuri insta-win strats (i.e. bunkers in extra small maps, boomers in naval maps). I think you should be balancing both the competitive and casual player-base. Forgive me if this feels a bit too intrusive, but the way this is going, it seems this patch will fragment the community more than it will unite it.

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45 minutes ago, Corvus Sidd said:

For all intents and purposes, creating a community patch that is designed only to accommodate competitive players is a weird flex. Why call it a community patch when you're unwilling to consider how casual and non-competitive players play the game, aka the community?

A competitive match, the BL requirement for Boomer might be substantial, but for casual players, it's just an added minute before a single submarine wipes your entire base. I think it is a bit short-sighted not to balance for the community, because a lot of casual players just want to play a game and not be frustrated by Yuri insta-win strats (i.e. bunkers in extra small maps, boomers in naval maps). I think you should be balancing both the competitive and casual player-base. Forgive me if this feels a bit too intrusive, but the way this is going, it seems this patch will fragment the community more than it will unite it.

You're kinda right about community, but you can't expect competition centered around casuals. Casuals don't play competitive. Alot of them don't even play the standard game. They'll play mods that change the entire balance of the game to fit the meta they like. So how can their gameplay be a good gauge for balance? They'll cry that planes are overpowered, when in reality they're actually kinda weak. If they got their way, the weak planes would be nerfed into oblivion.

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That's exactly why I think we need to change the meta. At the moment, the state of gameplay is redundant, repetitive, and very boring. We've come to a point that a strong subset of the player base only plays survival maps. The others play ToE (which is frankly what is killing casual multiplayer). I think this is happening because the game on its own is not very rewarding to play unless you play a very specific strat, and the people who don't like those strats just quit playing.

It takes almost an hour for me to organise a game that is not based on ToE, Survival, or Extra Small. Competitive play might be different, but we DESPERATELY need more variety in casual play. Right now its just a cycle of experienced players spamming the same meta to win over inexperienced or casual players.

Example?

Yuri's shenanigans.

Battlefortress spam (I can't stress this enough... What is the balancing here? The unit is crying for a nerf, and in my opinion, is killing the casual spirit of the game. It's a one-trick pony that everyone jumps on. No diversity. 

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On 2/28/2019 at 8:12 AM, Corvus Sidd said:

That's exactly why I think we need to change the meta. At the moment, the state of gameplay is redundant, repetitive, and very boring. We've come to a point that a strong subset of the player base only plays survival maps. The others play ToE (which is frankly what is killing casual multiplayer). I think this is happening because the game on its own is not very rewarding to play unless you play a very specific strat, and the people who don't like those strats just quit playing.

It takes almost an hour for me to organise a game that is not based on ToE, Survival, or Extra Small. Competitive play might be different, but we DESPERATELY need more variety in casual play. Right now its just a cycle of experienced players spamming the same meta to win over inexperienced or casual players.

Example?

Yuri's shenanigans.

Battlefortress spam (I can't stress this enough... What is the balancing here? The unit is crying for a nerf, and in my opinion, is killing the casual spirit of the game. It's a one-trick pony that everyone jumps on. No diversity. 

We have discussions like this all the time on discord. Plus we play a different variety of games as well. You should join us. 

 

https://discord.gg/4Ve25mM

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On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 10:12 AM, Corvus Sidd said:

That's exactly why I think we need to change the meta. At the moment, the state of gameplay is redundant, repetitive, and very boring. We've come to a point that a strong subset of the player base only plays survival maps. The others play ToE (which is frankly what is killing casual multiplayer). I think this is happening because the game on its own is not very rewarding to play unless you play a very specific strat, and the people who don't like those strats just quit playing.

It takes almost an hour for me to organise a game that is not based on ToE, Survival, or Extra Small. Competitive play might be different, but we DESPERATELY need more variety in casual play. Right now its just a cycle of experienced players spamming the same meta to win over inexperienced or casual players.

Example?

Yuri's shenanigans.

Battlefortress spam (I can't stress this enough... What is the balancing here? The unit is crying for a nerf, and in my opinion, is killing the casual spirit of the game. It's a one-trick pony that everyone jumps on. No diversity. 

 

This post summarizes the problem perfectly.  As you describe, things like "yuri shenaningans"  and battle fortress absolutely kill casual play because there is no reason to do anything else--the gameplay is boring and redundant-- and lets face it, the units are gay af! You sit with bf, I sit with bf, you sit with bf, I sit with bf... you see where im going with this. 

Interestingly, this is the exact thing that kills competitive play as well! You can not be creative or try new things or even be very aggressive or try anything skillful because really what u should be doing is teching ASAP to  get those, as I personally would describe, "super gay" units that make everything else irrelevant.  Which results in, I sit with mirage bf, you sit with MM mag, I sit with mirage bf, you sit with MM mag. 

While this patch is very well thought out, theres no way to truly fix the problem by tweaking the numbers. Yuris units are just too.... unengagable. You would have to change their function altogether imo. 

 

 

 

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I really like this rebalance patch especially since I play Yuri. But we need a big patch for both SP and MP that balances the Allies and Soviets too not just Yuri. Obviously this game was rushed despite being good as it is.

E.g. while I really like the apocalypse tank and it's design and should be the most "powerful" tank, the prism tank is vastly superior compare to any existing tank in the game. A bunch of prism tanks can take on large number of units and vehicles and take a whole base down, unless the enemy has rocketeers or cosmonauts (who only exist in 1 mission in the game), even then I doubt there would anti air vehicles or units guarding the prism tanks.

While the allies get all the cool stuff, the soviets are lacking in technology and don't have any fighting airplanes (which was addressed in RA3). I don't know what were they smoking when they were making the soviets. The soviets also have a "spy plane" but for some reason, the plane always gets spotted and taken down. I could be wrong on this one, but I always preferred the demolition trucks over the terrorists. I don't see them any useful and can be taken down easily. The tesla tanks also suck compare to their vastly allied superior prism tanks. The allied special stuff (airborne, tank destroyer, black eagle, grand cannon, sniper) is far better than the soviet.

Yuri on the other hand has advanced tech, but less units compared to the soviets and allies and this is why he was made OP. And I'm glad this patch fixes it. The giant squids should've belonged to Yuri since this is his tech. I guess they didn't know with what ocean animal to replace the giant squid so they left it to the soviets. Yuri has no heavy tank and no anti air boat. A simple small boat with a gattling cannon on it similar to the scorpion would've been good. 

There has to be a big patch for both SP and MP that also rebalances the Allies and the Soviets.

 

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