*

Offline FunkyFr3sh

  • Maker of official unofficial stuff!
  • Administrator
  • *
  • 2468
Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« on: October 20, 2015, 08:43:07 AM »
Which maps should be available in the first ladder?
And what about the settings? I guess we should force all new game options like mcv undeploy to be turned off, or not? Crates? :D

Should we make all standard maps available or you guys think it is better to filter out some of them?

*

Offline fir3w0rx

  • *
  • 462
  • I'm All About That Base
Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2015, 02:18:15 PM »
Everything should be available because as long as both players agree to the conditions, it's fair. I think what's more important is:

-how many points are awarded/deducted per win/loss
-when does the ladder reset (every month? week?)
-should a player that plays only one map over and over, get less points compared to someone who plays every map?
-should you be allowed to rack up points by just repeatedly playing the same (less skilled) player? what's the limit?
-maybe have bonus points. For example: +100 points if you played the most games during the month/week. Or +20 if you played on more than 20 maps.

These are just some examples and are very brief, each point can be broken down further.

A message about this post (with a link) should pop up in the lobby every time you log in, and every 10 minutes or so after that, imo, because a leaderboard is a big update.

*

Offline MattAttack

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • 627
  • "TIME TO ROCK'N'ROLL"
Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2015, 02:50:50 PM »
-should a player that plays only one map over and over, get less points compared to someone who plays every map?
-should you be allowed to rack up points by just repeatedly playing the same (less skilled) player? what's the limit?
-maybe have bonus points. For example: +100 points if you played the most games during the month/week. Or +20 if you played on more than 20 maps.

I have 0 experience with ladders, but these sound like good ideas to me... I particularly like the bonus for playing a variety of maps.
"only a dumbass tries to impress a bunch of retards."

*

Offline Tahj

  • CnCNet Team
  • *
  • 87
Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2015, 04:17:13 PM »
-how many points are awarded/deducted per win/loss
-when does the ladder reset (every month? week?)
-should a player that plays only one map over and over, get less points compared to someone who plays every map?
-should you be allowed to rack up points by just repeatedly playing the same (less skilled) player? what's the limit?
-maybe have bonus points. For example: +100 points if you played the most games during the month/week. Or +20 if you played on more than 20 maps.
  • We're using Elo rating, so it's based on the points of both players. Players will gain more points by playing others around their skill level. Lower skilled players that defeat higher skilled players, will gain more points.
  • Currently we're setup to reset every month.
  • I don't think this would be fair to those that prefer a certain map. If we agree that all maps should be allowed, then I don't think we should get into the business of penalizing map choices.
  • Currently, there's no limit; but again, playing the same (less skilled) player will yield lower points.
  • I'd like to explore this idea further. I think this could really make an impact on rankings at the end of a given month.
Which maps should be available in the first ladder?
And what about the settings? I guess we should force all new game options like mcv undeploy to be turned off, or not? Crates? :D

Should we make all standard maps available or you guys think it is better to filter out some of them?
I love the idea of having standardized settings for the ladder :)
I've listed my personal preference below for TS. So long as we have the map cheat detection in place, I don't see the harm in allowing any map. Players have the choice to accept/decline the map selection. I think further down the road (perhaps when we consider QM), we could revisit the map pool. Just my opinion of course

Tiberian Sun
  • Bases Allowed: true
  • Crates: false
  • Harvester Truce: false
  • Bridges Destroyable: true
  • Multiple Factory: true
  • MCV Redeploy: false
  • Short Game: true
  • Multi Engineer: true

Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2015, 01:49:26 AM »
For the game settings. Would those be optional? I know the Multi Fact is highly used in Red Alert, but is not highly used on Tiberian Sun. I'm down for what ever, just throwing the idea out there to make it optional on TS.

Cheers
-F0odLi0n
"All the great things are simple, and many can be expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." -- Winston Churchill

*

Offline fir3w0rx

  • *
  • 462
  • I'm All About That Base
Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2015, 03:01:53 AM »
I highly disagree with setting Multiple Factory to true. Not having this build speed multiplier is one of the things that make TS very different from the others as unit spam is limited. This is the root cause of unit spam (which is fine in other games because big tank battles are awesome, but I think it'll ruin TS). But that's just me.

*

Offline Nyerguds

  • C&C1 H4x0r
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • 5679
  • Green Forum Alien
Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2015, 06:04:09 AM »
Multi engi in TS? Ew.

*

Offline Tahj

  • CnCNet Team
  • *
  • 87
Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2015, 05:59:28 PM »
I highly disagree with setting Multiple Factory to true. Not having this build speed multiplier is one of the things that make TS very different from the others as unit spam is limited.

I thought this setting just enabled the ability to produce another MVC (as some maps disallow this). I didn't realize there was a speed multiplier attached? If so, I agree that it should be false.

Multi engi in TS? Ew.

It's become somewhat of a default setting for most players lol

*

Offline fir3w0rx

  • *
  • 462
  • I'm All About That Base
Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2015, 06:22:52 PM »
I highly disagree with setting Multiple Factory to true. Not having this build speed multiplier is one of the things that make TS very different from the others as unit spam is limited.
I thought this setting just enabled the ability to produce another MVC (as some maps disallow this). I didn't realize there was a speed multiplier attached? If so, I agree that it should be false.
No, you need a Tech Center to be able to make additional MCVs. Which maps don't allow this?

Multi engi in TS? Ew.
It's become somewhat of a default setting for most players lol
Stopping 3 engineers is hard enough in TS, let alone 1!

*

Offline Tahj

  • CnCNet Team
  • *
  • 87
Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2015, 06:37:15 PM »
No, you need a Tech Center to be able to make additional MCVs. Which maps don't allow this?

Yes, I know this :P
There are many mod maps however, that don't allow the additional MCV even when tech'd up. I just assumed this is what the "Multiple Factory" option allowed/disallowed.

*

ehy

  • Guest
-
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2015, 06:42:50 PM »
-
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 06:01:41 PM by - »

*

Offline Humble

  • *
  • 376
Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2015, 05:42:08 AM »
This for the WW one, and a separate ladder for all other settings:

*

Offline RC1985

  • ***
  • 100
Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2015, 10:13:49 AM »
-should a player that plays only one map over and over, get less points compared to someone who plays every map?
-maybe have bonus points......Or +20 if you played on more than 20 maps.

A message about this post (with a link) should pop up in the lobby every time you log in, and every 10 minutes or so after that, imo, because a leaderboard is a big update.

These are great points by fireworks and I second them. Since the purpose of the ladder is to give a fair, objective assessment of how good a player is, then it's only logical that knowledge of a variety of maps should be an important criterion in the assessment. Too many (RA) 'pros' know only 1-3 maps which they keep playing every day all day and they think they're pro just by that ("oh these are 'pro' maps, I play only "pro" maps, I don't play other "nub" maps zzz). Because of this we not only got extremely inaccurate rankings in the past (done by gut feel of these 'pros'), and players who are really great in other maps don't get the credit and ranking they deserve.

Another awesome thing about this is that it discourages dodging, something that loads of RA players do when confronted with a map they're unfamiliar with.

Of course the maps should be legit - no crates or maps that have their rules.ini modified. For maps that have spot disadvantages or money asymmetry, then a ranked match should have players having alternating between spots (it's the best way I can think of at this moment, and I know it's silly to have a best of competition of even numbers, it should be odd...)

Maybe we could have a bonus for players who take on aftermath games as well. The game changes a lot when aftermath is enabled; a true pro should have sufficiently diverse knowledge and also acumen to think fast in situations he's unfamiliar with and make good decisions.

*

ehy

  • Guest
-
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2015, 02:13:24 PM »
-
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 06:10:38 PM by - »

*

Offline Humble

  • *
  • 376
Re: Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2015, 01:49:25 AM »
I think giving more/less points based on the rating of the player you just beat, would be enough to prevent people 'dodging'.

If for example the #1 rank avoids #2 and #3, the points could be setup to make it harder for #1 to remain at top (but differences in maps would have to be taken into account, like a WW map player won't be playing a mod map player just because they are similar rank.  this is why i think there should be one ladder for WW maps and a separate one for mod maps)