July Ladder Change

[dkeeton]

June was a bad month for the Tiberian Sun ladder.

What needs to be done to get activity up?

[F0odLi0n]

Penalize people who are asking for free wins.

[Hungry Mike]

I love firestorm!

You have to make it noob friendler. FInd a way to get them

[c0rpsmakr]

hmmm.... who would have figured this is how it would turn out when you replace all of the actual tiberian sun maps with someone else's idea of what they want ts to be?

oh wait, I did and nobody listened.

 

1. One Ladder Name

2. Enforce ladder bans/point resets for those who try to cheat with more than one account.

3. Official standard tiberian sun maps with omissions of maps that have proven glitches (ie Super Bridgehead Redux having a glitch that disables multiple harvs when the tib fields are low) along with a number of rejections.

4. Enforce banning/warns for users who post inflammatory remarks or insults on the forums.

5. Incentivize the ladder with occasional tournaments.

6. If possible allow a spectator-type of thing for people to be able to tune in and watch ladder games or have a cncnet twitch channel that broadcasts live ladder games (nobody should have access to this aside from trusted, objective cncnet staff).

 

 

I know this won't happen from previous discussions with cncnet admins, but i can 100% ensure that ts would be exponentially more active with CLANS and a clan ladder. I have a few other thoughts if cncnet admins would like further contribution. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by c0rpsmakr

[Sol]

35 minutes ago, c0rpsmakr said:

 

3. Official standard tiberian sun maps with omissions of maps that have proven glitches (ie Super Bridgehead Redux having glitches that disable multiple harvs when the tib fields are low)

There are fixed versions around for these maps. "caseys canyon" and "a river runs near it" both have this problem and I would hate to lose some of these good maps to easily fixable glitches.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Sol

[c0rpsmakr]

14 minutes ago, Sol said:

There are fixed versions around for these maps. "caseys canyon" and "a river runs near it" both have this problem and I would hate to lose some of these good maps to easily fixable glitches.

If the only thing changed about those maps are the glitches, then those reworked maps would be used in place.

[Avesta]

Fact of the matter is TS players don’t care about 1v1 games outside of a sub 1% minority.

There is really nobody left playing TS except for the hater community and a small amount of low/mid level players that don’t know any better. I personally don’t think they should be catered to whether or not the sane community is active.

XWIS is available for anyone who wants to play unfair competitions. 

The QM ladder in its current state is fair outside of allowing multiple usernames per player. 

Stock maps are unbalanced with or without VET. Having unbalanced playing environment in a tournament is a mockery to the concept of competition and it shouldn’t be allowed even if a handful of insane people advocate for it.

The only way activity is ever going to be increased is to support multiplayer competition features. And your also going to have to advertise for new player base since the sane community is burnt out from dealing with the insane players plaguing the game for the last several years. Your also going to have to split the tournament into tiers so that people like WeaponX aren’t matched up against people like johnzpro. Obviously this requires effort and financing which makes it a unacceptable solution. 

Therefore, with the consideration that your asking for changes that won’t require effort, financing, continuous monitoring/support etc. The QM ladder in its current state is in the best and fairest condition it can possibly be in. 

Id make the suggestion again of limiting usernames to 1 per player in the interest of fairness. But all that will achieve at this point is de-incentivizing additional players from participating that previously depended on that unfair advantage. 

tl:dr... The only way to get the remaining toxic player base to participate in competition is to increase their ability to play unfairly. Increase usernames per player, provide them with unbalanced glitchy maps, and disable anti-cheat so they can use their map/tech cheats. The real reason they don’t want to play is they don’t want to have to play without a built in advantage or built in excuse of being at a disadvantage. There’s really nothing more to it.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Avesta

[Tibermach]

back to OG maps please, best all round for a ranked TS game, fix glitches fine, but don't mod the units further than the bare necessity... allow the mod maps but not the mod units/buildings... everyone knows what their dealing with then, no extras... just reject the ones you don't do...have we tried it with just one log? we probably should trial at the very least a month or 2

 

is a monthly ladder too long?

 

what about a fortnightly/15 or 16 days depending on month type ladder?

 

 

[Avesta]

2 hours ago, Tibermach said:

 fix glitches fine, but don't mod the units further than the bare necessity...

 

Quote

 

 

So basically you want VET then?

Edited June 30, 2020 by Avesta

[Hungry Mike]

First of all: All the 3-5 crybaby vanila pharisees hoped for the day to come, when less players use the ladder. But its normal for summer time. We dont need high activity any month. Looking from this day, the ladder is still a success.
 

But if you want more people to play it, you have to factor in the reasons, why people wouldnt want to play, and "terminate" these reasons.

1) Noobs are scared to face a tough competitor. This remains true even for the highest ranks: I guess Black wouldnt enter the ladder game, when he knows or thinks Mola is in there waiting for him lol (?).

2) You have to wait hours to get someone else. People get games much easier in regular game lobbies, and the games are more fun there (team games).

3) Most noobs play Giants only, but is Giants even included in the ladder?

4) A very very small group of 3-5 people cry for "BUG+ maps only" in the Ladder.

 

Possible Solutions:
 

1) Make teamgames on the ladder possible .

2) Make 2 leagues: League A for the pros/middle tier and League B for the noobs. People can select what they are before they start. If noobs are blind and think they are pros, they will get roasted and leave League A very fast. Some of League A would be relegated after a "season" to League B, and the winners from League B come to League A. The WInner of League A could earn a special medaillon and a special name ("Champion-XY") after the season. 3 points/win, 1 point/wash or draw.

3) Let GIants be part of it, if it is not yet, so noobs use it.

4) Dont cave to the very, very small fraction of Vanila Pharisees. If you go back to Vanila you would lose all the people you got by bringing in fair and balanced maps (like Mola, NME or me for instance). But you could bring in Vanila maps in the pool, too. I understand the reasoning tho, not to do that.

5) Change the settings from Month to Month to give it a special note. Maybe Firestorm? 9999 $ instead of 10000 $ (lol)? Fog of War?

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Hungry Mike

[Weaponx]

Keep vet maps.

Keep ladder as it is, ts has been overall slow, changing ladder wont change it.

Also you saw how active it was all the previous months since the vet patch came.

Also everything Avesta said is on point, no need for me to repeat that.

** Note red alert etc remaster have just been launched, taking some players to that.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Weaponx

[Phenomena]

Lol at those arguing about the maps

The reality is, even if 100% of people agreed on types of maps, there are still only 5-10 players willing to play the ladder.
This is how it is, this is unlikely to change.
95% of the player base are pure trash and only play Giants, and have absolutely 0 interest in 1v1 on WW maps and likely getting demolished.

Change my mind.

[amokk]

4 hours ago, Phenomena said:

95% of the player base are pure trash and only play Giants

exactly.    how is excluding them working out for you guys?

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by amokk

[Avesta]

1 hour ago, amokk said:

exactly.    how is excluding them working out for you guys?

 

At the risk of asking you a serious question (given your history of responding with nonsense).. Do you think that the giants players would compromise by accepting a version of their map that does not have fast harvesters, super power plants, etc?

I wouldn’t be opposed to having giants on the ladder provided that the units and structures are set to VET patch standards. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Avesta

[1337]

On 6/29/2020 at 1:18 PM, dkeeton said:

June was a bad month for the Tiberian Sun ladder.

What needs to be done to get activity up?

What needs to be done is allow all maps to be included in the tourney games to get more activity. Modders can't compete on WW maps that's a fact, but modder's might stand a chance if the WW player plays on the mod map to prove his skill.

I haven't played the tourney with vet maps and never will with those edits done. Once there is change I will participate.

 

[Weaponx]

On 7/2/2020 at 3:09 AM, 1337 said:

What needs to be done is allow all maps to be included in the tourney games to get more activity. Modders can't compete on WW maps that's a fact, but modder's might stand a chance if the WW player plays on the mod map to prove his skill.

I haven't played the tourney with vet maps and never will with those edits done. Once there is change I will participate.

 

Modders have no chance vs WW players, once the ww players figger the maps out.

I dont even play mod maps, and have no issues owning other players on mod maps, if i  have tried the map just once......

Mod maps shouldnt be in the ranked tournement anyway. It does not reflect the game as it was meant to be played.

 

And yes you can add hotfixes to maps and units to balance it (especially when you got original developers backing you up), like cc accuracy (doesnt miss as often). Thats why VET is viable for tournement ranked games.

But you cant adjust units like getting faster harvesters, cyborgs shooting emps, and other rubish.

 

As not for playing vet, with no valid reason and wanting giants in, i see no logic to this.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Weaponx

[Hungry Mike]

9 hours ago, Avesta said:

At the risk of asking you a serious question (given your history of responding with nonsense).. Do you think that the giants players would compromise by accepting a version of their map that does not have fast harvesters, super power plants, etc?

I wouldn’t be opposed to having giants on the ladder provided that the units and structures are set to VET patch standards. 

Why should they? I thought we play for fun; and if that gives them fun, so be it. You can be a noob there or good, too. I guess MrFirestar would rape almost anyone on 1vs1 Giants lol.

 

1 hour ago, Weaponx said:

Modders have no chance vs WW players, once the ww players figger the maps out.

Na, you know better Mola :P.  There are Giants pros, who are shit on WW, and other way around. For instance: MrFirestar is a beast in Giants, but hes weak on WW; and thats normal. Trooper on the other hand got slaughtered by me in a 3vs1 (3 vs me) in Giants. Even Zenetusken lost in Giants, and he was the Über-Pro 2 years ago. And think about Visc: This map is so shitty, it makes your iq drop!   

1 hour ago, Weaponx said:

Mod maps shouldnt be in the ranked tournement anyway. It does not reflect the game as it was meant to be played.

You would deny then the good effort of many people, who play it; and take their ability away to show what they can and learn WW. And who cares what someone thought how the game should be played? I only care for what God wants me to do - we are here to have fun in the few days we have. And mod maps can be fun too  

1 hour ago, Weaponx said:

As not for playing vet, with no valid reason and wanting giants in, i see no logic to this.

100 % agreed.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Hungry Mike

[Avesta]

I have beatin Firestar 4-5 times in less than 5 minutes without even trying (just like all the other so called “good” giants players)

Also, firestar is semi-competent on real maps making him a less relevant example. 

I mean, on giants you have infinite fast money, only need to build 1 power plant for EMP, 10-20 sams + stealth and not a single giants player can stop a 1 ref dissrupter attack controlled by a skilled player.. you still arguing that they’re good at the game? They have literally 0 skill. 99% of them can’t even prevent a jump jet scout from breaching.. it’s a spam map that makes its players rely on mass units and the vast majority of them don’t even have enough wearwithal to prep air defense on a map where banshees are the only threat after 3-4 minutes in. Why do you think those guys have been playing for so many years and haven’t improved at all or learned anything and still die to the same simple rush in every single game I bother trolling in. After a certain point they can’t even maintain the stamina to keep clicking on banshees and are just reduced to spamming chem/multi missles at each other.

literally the 1 and only skill you develop playing giants is emergency MCV trading after you get KOd.

PS.. please investigate 1337 as a possible TRZ alt account.

Edited July 2, 2020 by Avesta

[Weaponx]

I think fire plays fine on WW, his gameplay reflects his giant style. 

Tiger tends to beat him alot and he is not a modder. Just an example.

The issue with giants is the majority is "2nd class players",  and therefore fire will excell there. He basically only face them,

 

I cant think of a good modder except fire, but i think fire has decent ww skills, ive played alot of 2v2 with him vs ww players, and his gameplay is not top level but its decent enough to compete and play with WW players.

 

The main problem with giant players / modders is  they will never really learn how to play tiberian sun on WW maps, due to the fact they are dependent on fast harvs, cheaper units, modified units, maps etc. Where a WW player knows how to use the units correctly, build without having fast harvs etc. and will therefore have better gameplay then a modder, in general.

A modder wont control harvs, watch the econ etc but most likely spawn units.

A ww player will control harvs, watch econ, beware of what he builds and spawning units anyone can do.

 

But thats just my personal opinion.

Tiger, tropper, me can handle any mod maps and rarely lose on them. (1v1,  not taking 4v4 into consideration as teamplay tend to lack in giants games)

 

 

 

[Hungry Mike]

1 hour ago, Weaponx said:

A modder wont control harvs, watch the econ etc but most likely spawn units.

A ww player will control harvs, watch econ, beware of what he builds and spawning units anyone can do.

Microing harvs is a "sin" before Kane haha, its bowing down and doing the cleaning job when someone else is paid to exactly that (the programmers). So i refuse to do it   

1 hour ago, Weaponx said:

Tiger, tropper, me can handle any mod maps and rarely lose on them. (1v1,  not taking 4v4 into consideration as teamplay tend to lack in giants games)

Ye you are good. But Trooper was ez food for me.     

1 hour ago, Weaponx said:

The issue with giants is the majority is "2nd class players",

True!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Fact of the matter is: The vanila crybabies are outnumbered by the many people, who love the Vet Patch! So feel free to let the ladder be as it is or change it; i still like the job you are doing

[Phenomena]

Ive always gone against the masses and always said mod maps SHOULD be allowed in ladders. 

Add a slew of maps, that will get picked at random when the person plays quickplay

Id suggest nerfing harv bombs on the more popular shit maps, otherwise myself, and any1 half decent will harv bomb every game.

Its the only thing that hasent been tried to get more activity, do this and youll get your answer. If games pick up, then success.

[c0rpsmakr]

Ultimately @dkeeton, this is you and the other mods' call. You have a stark difference in views presented to you on this, are you wanting to let the ladder sit and gauge the activity over the next 1/2 months to see if the map pool consisting of 100% vet maps, 3 ladder logs, etc will bring activity and this was just a fluke or temporary slump, or will you consider immediate changes in whatever way to draw more people back to the ladder?

[Avesta]

I’d rather the ladder not be played then give the haters a platform to hate and cheat on tbh. 

I said from day 1 the QM concept isn’t going to work for TS and nothing is going to change that. If maps are changed then the band of haters boycotting it will start using it to try and prove a point. But their dedication will quickly subside and after a week or two it’ll go back to corpsmakr being the only one using it and other players randomly hopping on to bash him. 

One could make the argument that things should be catered to what the people still putting in 10+ hours a day on the game want and from what I can tell that’s pretty much limited to the 4-5 anti vet haters at this point. But I can’t submit to making something unbalanced and unfair just because that’s what a handful of insane people want. I’d rather the whole game just be shut down than made into a paradise for low IQ players that are scared to play in a no excuse environment.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Avesta

[c0rpsmakr]

Why must you reply to literally everything I say on the forums, it's blatant what your stance is as well as mine, yet you continue to be a foul troll with 0 intention or capability of controlling your urge to insult people at any chance you get. I dont like you and you dont like me, great, now stop polluting this thread or any other thread with your stupid baseless inflammatory drivel. 

The argument made several times months ago was that more people preferred the vet maps, which is why the entire map pool consists of them. Now the same people making that argument are saying that the only people that play the ladder now are those who prefer the standard maps. So suddenly ALL of those who were in favor of the vet maps have stopped playing it over the course of what, 2 months? Me alone deciding not to play on a ladder where all maps whose units have been altered suddenly stopped all the activity or influenced a large number of people to stop competing? You all got your vet map-favored ladder, it hasn't panned out the way you like, and when the server admins ask for suggestions and I give my perspective (without being a fool and insulting anybody, mind you), I get all of this vitriol and bullshit spewed at me because I don't want to play on a ladder with additions I don't support? What absolute fucking stupidity you possess. It's quite obvious that many of those who don't like my position aren't capable of discussing this without derailing and devolving a possibly productive topic without idiotic, baseless, inflammatory remarks towards either myself or others with a differing point of view. I am not the one insulting everybody with an opposing opinion, nor am I the reason for the decline in activity. What have you all done to help bring new players into the fold? Are any of you spending your time teaching people, allowing them to spectate games? I haven't seen a single one of you besides myself teaching brand new players the fundamentals of the game, but yet you sit on your undeserved pseudo high horse insulting them and banning from your games without giving a chance of spectating or answering any of their questions. You, you are the reason more people don't play. Now hush and let the mods decide whether to keep or change the way things are.

Edited July 3, 2020 by c0rpsmakr

[Avesta]

"Why must you reply to literally everything I say on the forums, it's blatant what your stance is as well as mine, yet you continue to be a foul troll with 0 intention or capability of controlling your urge to insult people at any chance you get."

Corps, if you continue to advocate for a unfair competition I will continue to call you out for it every time. Stop trying to sabotage progress if you don't want to hear from me. You can complain about "insults" but words have definitions and I am using terminology that adequately fits your behavior.

"I dont like you and you dont like me, great, now stop polluting this thread or any other thread with your stupid baseless inflammatory drivel."

It's true that we don't like each other but its important to recognize the reasons why. I don't like you because of your narcissistic delusion of grandeur persona. While you don't like me because I don't show you undue respect and blindly agree with everything you say. That's a pretty stark difference in view points. Once again, if you continue to advocate for unfair game play by campaigning for unbalanced maps to be included in a competition system I am going to continue to call you out on it. I agree with your description of pollution content, however, its necessary to make sure that your deluded views aren't allowed to be viewed unchallenged. And finally, you can complain about "inflammatory drivel" but once again, words have definitions, and the words I've chosen are 100% fitting and accurately descriptive of your behavior and ideology. As for having no bases, I have simple math, logic, and morality on my side. Everything I've learned in my 30 years on this planet tells me that fairness is a good thing and should be utilized in competition. I've also learned that anyone who disagrees with that has some kind of advantage over people that they don't want challenged or otherwise believes that they will one day be able to take advantage of the imbalance in their favor. When a system in place for players to compete to determine the better player, Having one player have an advantage makes  no sense because its a mathematical imbalance. If one player has a tiberium patch with 50,000 tib available to harvest and another player has a starting patch that has 45k tib to harvest then the first player has a mathematical advantage that will lead them to certain victory if all other things are equal. This is no different than having 40m dash where one person runs on a level surface and another person is running at a 1% grade. 1+1 has to equal 2, if 1+1 = 2 for one player while 1+1= 1.5 for the other player, the math is illogical and thus unfair.

"The argument made several times months ago was that more people preferred the vet maps, which is why the entire map pool consists of them. Now the same people making that argument are saying that the only people that play the ladder now are those who prefer the standard maps. So suddenly ALL of those who were in favor of the vet maps have stopped playing it over the course of what, 2 months?"

Other than weaponx, people who favor VET have never played the QM ladder with or without vet maps because the QM ladder is a bad concept for TS and 99% of players don't like or care about 1v1s. This point means nothing other than the fact that you've admitted that the majority of players prefer VET.

"I get all of this vitriol and bullshit spewed at me because I don't want to play on a ladder with additions I don't support?"

Its fine if you don't want to support the ladder due to your ideologies, but your lack of support isn't the reason you are targeted. you are targeted because of your insistence on sabotaging it with unfair/unbalanced maps.

"I am not the one insulting everybody with an opposing opinion, nor am I the reason for the decline in activity"

The very nature of your argument is threatening and inflammatory towards anyone who values the concept of fairness and balance for competition. And trying to over state that you are being flamed just because you are being appropriate labeled as an insane hater is also indirectly offensive since you are attempting to have my posting restricted.

"I haven't seen a single one of you besides myself teaching brand new players the fundamentals of the game, but yet you sit on your undeserved pseudo high horse insulting them and banning from your games without giving a chance of spectating or answering any of their questions."

Blatant delusional comment.. Our games are filled with specs and new players unless there are 8 or more people that aren't unknown. Your "training" hasn't produced anything of note for the pro player community. Any player who has the social wherewithal to enter a game and ID himself as someone who doesn't lag and wants to spec is and always has been welcome unless room is needed for established players. Quite frankly all your "training" has done is create multitudes of players that are someone worse than you with infantry and other aspects of team play (never warn, never pay attention, etc.). Not to mention a complete lack of understanding of all things strategy. You are so full of yourself its embarrassing to read.

"You, you are the reason more people don't play. Now hush and let the mods decide whether to keep or change the way things are. "

Very true statement here, without an active community of sane players playing the game it has had a huge impact on the player base having anyone to log in to play with. When I log in and see nothing but toxic players on I usually just log right out. But back when people like Humble, Skylegend, Cambria, etc. were active logging in was a pleasure. So if you only look so deep you could blame lack of activity over all on the lack of activity of "us". But if you look a little deeper you can ask the additional question of why aren't any of the sane players playing anymore? The answer is because of the behavior of people like you. Finally, the mods wouldn't have made this thread if they didn't want discussion on it so I'll be happy to do whatever I want with or without your permission.