RedAlert2 mode

[Ra2Nub]

Please for the love of god get rid of the Cloning vats 'grind' ability. People use it for the longest time now to put spies in it for unlimited money once someone got a second MCV. Nobody ever used the grind ability of the cloning vats without the meaning to exploit it for unlimited money.

 

Yes in original RA2 you could grind units with it but right now its explotable and totally destroys RA2 mode, and nobody used it ever in its original way but unlimited money.

 

EDIT: I am not sure if Spies are the only units you can make unlimited money with it, but seems like everyone use Spies to mass grind for extra money.

 

EDIT 2: This is only in RA2 mode which is why I've bumped this topic.

[tomsons26]

Unlimited money? lol u wat

The Cloning Vats Grinding ability gives the appropriate value specified in the rules tag Soylent, which usually is half or less of the units original cost.

Only way you can farm money with this is if you grind units that don't have Soylent set, but most should, there might be 2 or 3 that don't, which are always if present on map, as 1 or 2 in any original maps and meant as hidden bonuses by WW.

[Plokite_Wolf]

It was like that in the real RA2. If there's a critical exploit attached to it, then it needs to be fixed, never removed fully.

[Ra2Nub]

Unlimited money? lol u wat

The Cloning Vats Grinding ability gives the appropriate value specified in the rules tag Soylent, which usually is half or less of the units original cost.

Only way you can farm money with this is if you grind units that don't have Soylent set, but most should, there might be 2 or 3 that don't, which are always if present on map, as 1 or 2 in any original maps and meant as hidden bonuses by WW.

 

Play RA2 mode, get Sov + Allied, create spies and grind them. You will get more than 50%, aka unlimited money.

 

Demonstration in screenshots (no miners are mining..):

 

1000 money:

 

I create a spy:

I toss them in the vats:

 

Woo 800 bonus.

 

Repeat, unlimited money.

 

EDIT: Let me check if this is also a thing in authentic RA2.

EDIT2: For CnCnet this can be exploited with every single Allied unit.

[Plokite_Wolf]

You're basically sending two units in the Cloning Vats, not one.

[Ra2Nub]

You're basically sending two units in the Cloning Vats, not one.

 

I would understand that but don't you think its a bit iffy someone can.. like keep make units and sent them to the vats? This seems to not work with any Soviet unit, just Allied ones... which makes no sense if it was to be intentional it should work for Soviet units too.

 

Anyway, I've just checked Ra2 and its indeed also a thing there. Hmph. Sounds to me like a super dodgy mechanic. This basically makes someone in Ra2 mode with both MCV's automatic win since they can just mass make units > send to vats > repeat (or make more barracks if it goes too slow).

[Plokite_Wolf]

I just did that myself in proper RA2. All units do return a fraction of their cost, it's just that the Spies and maybe Tanya/Yuri have the closest return to their nominal price.

 

But tell me, what are the odds (save for having crates on) that you'll get an Allied MCV and a Cloning Vat at the same time?

[Iran]

Yes this exploit definitely needs to be fixed.

[tomsons26]

Unlimited money? lol u wat

The Cloning Vats Grinding ability gives the appropriate value specified in the rules tag Soylent, which usually is half or less of the units original cost.

Only way you can farm money with this is if you grind units that don't have Soylent set, but most should, there might be 2 or 3 that don't, which are always if present on map, as 1 or 2 in any original maps and meant as hidden bonuses by WW.

 

Play RA2 mode, get Sov + Allied, create spies and grind them. You will get more than 50%, aka unlimited money.

 

Demonstration in screenshots (no miners are mining..):

 

1000 money:

 

I create a spy:

I toss them in the vats:

 

Woo 800 bonus.

 

Repeat, unlimited money.

 

EDIT: Let me check if this is also a thing in authentic RA2.

EDIT2: For CnCnet this can be exploited with every single Allied unit.

 

Thanks for making it clearer what you are saying. Should have mentioned you are sending the cloned unit too

Um yea, that's how the game works, i wouldn't say its a exploit, its a design overlook on Westwood Pacific part, indeed its something that should be fixed.

 

The way i see it is we should make cloned units assign a special IsClone bool to the cloned unit and it would refund 0, it should probably be cleared on Owner change to make it fair against the other players. Its highly probable since you mention that it doesn't work for the Soviets that this already exits but for whatever reason doesn't work for the Allies.

 

Edit

This will be present in RA2 as well, the difference is you will be refunded 1000 not 1800.

As for CnCNet, i looked at my RA2 mode rules, someone besides me has modified them at some point and made the Spy's Soylent 900 not 500 which it's supposed to be....

Looks like that isn't all that has been changed...

Well now, seems they are the correct RA2 values after all, but yea the Soylent values should be changed to how they were in YR not how they are in RA2 if they are higher than YR, i'm not sure if they even realized they matter until Yuri got the Grinder...

 

Addressing the Type select issue, seems it was changed, i'm not sure if it was in YR tho as i remember something about this being mentioned somewhere in RA2 changelogs, i can't currently test it with stock RA2 cause the serial key checking code false positives and my base blows up yey....

For now, you can actually select multiple buildings by holding down Shift and then set the Rally Point for them

[Ra2Nub]

Yeah I've just checked YR and a grinder seems to always give 50% of the units cost (checked infantry since that's relevant to the issue), which means 50% x2 = 100%. That's totally fine and can't be exploited. I know Ra2mode is suppose to replicate Ra2 but hopefully the fix they made for YR regarding grinding units can be applied to Ra2mode so people no longer ruin decent long games by doing the said exploit (that's why my post was angry to begin with, many games were already (which is my opinion) ruined by this).

 

Thanks in advance and glad Iran supports a fix for this.

 

But tell me, what are the odds (save for having crates on) that you'll get an Allied MCV and a Cloning Vat at the same time?

 

Yeah I am aware its crated games mostly ruined, and that's the type of games I play here and there, so yeah... In 'competitive' games this is most likely not going to occur, but still should be fixed regardless.

[SiRaLeX]

It's not really overlooked. The idea is that when you capture a Tanya or a Spy with a Yuri in RA2 and then grind it you will get more money (almost the price of the original unit cost for Spy and I think 100 % for Tanya). It's a bonus/reward for capturing a dangerous or hard to spot unit.

 

The thing is, when you're at the point of owning both Allied + Soviet MCV and your opponent lets you build both Allied Tech + Soviet Tech + Cloning Vats and you can produce your own Tanyas/Spies and grind them, you can make money with that but perhaps (not always) you've already won the game anyway.

 

But it's still a chore clicking 20 Tanyas and then grinding them, considering you will not be able to build any other infantry in that time (such as Rocketeers) and you will most likely need multiple Barracks to produce them fast enough.

 

Perhaps it would be a good idea to lower the Soylent for those two unit so that they can't be cloned and ground for "unlimited money".

 

[TANY]
UIName=Name:TANYA
Name=Tanya
Cost=1000
Soylent=1000;1500

[sPY]
UIName=Name:SPY
Name=Spy ;locked
Cost=1000
Soylent=900;2000

 

This is where the problem is. Cloned Tanyas make you +1000 while cloned Spies still make you +800.

 

 

[tomsons26]

It's not really overlooked. The idea is that when you capture a Tanya or a Spy with a Yuri in RA2 and then grind it you will get more money (almost the price of the original unit cost for Spy and I think 100 % for Tanya). It's a bonus/reward for capturing a dangerous or hard to spot unit.

Yes that's the idea, and that's not what i was talking about, i was talking about Clones, when they introduced this feature they didn't consider the possibility of using this for basically farming cash using your own buildable infantry.

[SiRaLeX]

CnCNet could easily "fix" this in their RA2 mode.

 

It's not such a big deal, lowering the Spies Soylent to 450 and Tanya's Soylent to 500. It's not like you capture those units on a regular basis so it wouldn't make a difference to regular play. Except those going for cloning would waste a whole lot of money before they realize that they're not making any profit.

 

[Plokite_Wolf]

It's not really overlooked. The idea is that when you capture a Tanya or a Spy with a Yuri in RA2 and then grind it you will get more money (almost the price of the original unit cost for Spy and I think 100 % for Tanya). It's a bonus/reward for capturing a dangerous or hard to spot unit.

And you "know" this because...?

 

 

At no point is it implied by the devs that this was intended.

[SiRaLeX]

It's not really overlooked. The idea is that when you capture a Tanya or a Spy with a Yuri in RA2 and then grind it you will get more money (almost the price of the original unit cost for Spy and I think 100 % for Tanya). It's a bonus/reward for capturing a dangerous or hard to spot unit.

And you "know" this because...?

 

Because of... common sense. The soylents for Tanya and Spy used to be a lot higher, they lowered them (though I'm not sure when) either when RA2 went into production or in 1.006.

 

 

 

 

At no point is it implied by the devs that this was intended.

 

The developers don't have jack shit to say about this.

 

It's the game designers that are responsible for designing the maps/units.

 

 

[Plokite_Wolf]

The developers don't have jack shit to say about this.

 

It's the game designers that are responsible for designing the maps/units.

The designers design the units, the developers program them in.

[SiRaLeX]

Uh, yeah? How do you "program" in units? No single unit is programmed into RA2 nor YR.

 

 

The only thing that doesn't check out for Tanya and Spy is the "Infantry units can be sent into the Cloning Vat and destroyed. This will give you a small amount of credits in return."

 

Because there's no way to mark clones as clones and make them worth less.

[Plokite_Wolf]

Uh, yeah? How do you "program" in units? No single unit is programmed into RA2 nor YR.

Quit nitpicking. The units are dictated by their code, and someone with enough coding skills (relatively low in RA2) to have them in the game. They don't come from the clouds, you know.

 

"Try this for an extra cash bonus." ---> literally goes for all units that can enter a Cloning Vat. This mentions no additional super-high bonus for Spies.

[SiRaLeX]

The developers don't have jack shit to say about this.

 

It's the game designers that are responsible for designing the maps/units.

The designers design the units, the developers program them in.

 

Uh, yeah? How do you "program" in units? No single unit is programmed into RA2 nor YR.

Quit nitpicking. The units are dictated by their code, and someone with enough coding skills (relatively low in RA2) to have them in the game. They don't come from the clouds, you know.

 

Talking about quitting nitpicking? A bit hypocritical, are we?

 

You don't have to have any "coding skills" to create new units. BECAUSE UNITS ARE NOT "PROGRAMMED". This just doesn't seem to go into your head.

 

Units are made out of properties such as HP, a warhead and some voxels but not "code".

 

 

 

"Try this for an extra cash bonus." ---> literally goes for all units that can enter a Cloning Vat. This mentions no additional super-high bonus for Spies.

 

There is no "super-high bonus for Spies".

 

A Spy costs 1000 $ and grinding it gives you 900 $.

 

 

[Ra2Nub]

I am pretty sure by 'Cash Bonus' they refer to fact you grind someone's unit, which means you indeed gain a cash bonus from someone else's unit, not a cash bonus from the original cost, or else Soviet captured units (since they say capture) should give a bonus too, or once again it makes no sense like now.

 

If I had to truly guess the reason why Spy, Tanya etc are higher is because they did cost that much during pre-release/beta, and when they altered the cost they never changed the grind amount, which probably end up making the grind amount (when tossing 2 into grinder) more than 50%, or indeed never had in mind that someone could get both MCV's. Regardless, its fixed in YR (by making it 50%), which means they acknowledged the issues that can happen if one would make a vats and build units to than send it to Grinder when owning more MCV's.

 

P.S: Tanks send to grinder still gives 100% (as far as I know), so they really only changed this for infantries, further proving to me they saw it as an exploit you could get unlimited money when owning both MCV's.

[Iran]

Yeah its a bug they fixed in YR.

[naWb]

I would love Ra2 mode to be just like the Original Ra2.

[ore_truck]

I like RA2. It's weird they have the expansion pack but not the base game. It's like a professional pizza chef who can make 10000 pizza flavours doesn't know how to make a plain cheese pizza. (sorry i had to say that)

[Rampastring]

I like RA2. It's weird they have the expansion pack but not the base game. It's like a professional pizza chef who can make 10000 pizza flavours doesn't know how to make a plain cheese pizza. (sorry i had to say that)

That's one of worst analogies that I've ever seen (sorry I had to say that).

 

In this case the original "plain cheese pizza" has several flaws in it that are fixed in the more special pizza flavours (the RA2 engine has several bugs / issues that were fixed for YR), plus the special pizza flavours and the plain cheese pizza have significantly different recipes / are built differently (the work that has been done for the YR spawner couldn't just be directly copied for the RA2 spawner - meaning that some of the work would have to be done again). The special flavours also give more options to customers who like editing their pizza before eating it (map modders surely like the extra YR logics). And in RA2 Mode's case, the special flavour pizza can also be edited to very closely if not completely match the plain cheese pizza*.

 

* If you see any differences between the plain cheese pizza edition of the special flavour pizza and an actual plain cheese pizza, you can report them here and the professional pizza chefs known as Grant and Tomsons can fix the special flavour pizza's plain cheese pizza edition so that it matches the actual plain cheese pizza.

 

..

[ore_truck]

I see your point, was just saying how I felt about it.