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MapDesigner

Red Alert 2 Laboratory

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Hello,

 

I would like to post any in-game expirement or findings that I find interesting.

 

Do post any findings you find interesting or discuss any previou tests mentioned here.

 

Test 1:

How much do multiple buildings reduce build time? I couldnt find this in the wiki except that the max benefit is 6 factories. So I tested having multiple warfactories and here is the setup and findings:

Setup:

used either spies or engineers with 1 barracks to know the ratio with 1 factory, then i inreased number of factories and saw how the ratio changes for dif. Tanks (battle tank, apocalypse, rhino, MCV, etc)

Edit: let me elaborate a little more here. From the data of cnc wiki, I could pull through the build time for each tank and infantry unit. I used spy and engineer cuz they have nice numbers of 40 seconds and 20 seconds respectively. so it can easily be matched with other tanks (battle tanks with 80 seconds so = 2 spies). I further double checked this pulled data testing the results with 1 factory vs 1 barracks.the rate of number of spies vs battle fortress was as expected, 2. I then tested making many many battle fortresses and spies, and counted them each time ( i separate each 10s in 1 group). I also used grinder to get rid of the units and re-do the test until I have satisfactory results and precise value of the rate of production (any tank / spy or any tank : engineers). thats basically it.

Findings:

1 warfact produce normally 100%

2 warfacts have about 88.33% build time. (113.4% build $peed)

3 warfacts have about 73% build time (136% build $peed)

4 warfacts have about 56.66% build time. (176.5% build $speed)

5 warfacts have about 45% build time (222.2% $peed)

6 warfacts have about 33% build time. (300% $peed)

So basically you can make 3 Rhinos instead f 1 comparing 6 factories to 1?

 

Edited by MapDesigner
  • Upvote 1

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16 minutes ago, fir3w0rx said:

3 standard oil derricks = 1 War/Chrono miner (roughly)

What do you mean? It gives you as much money? That's nice :O

 

How did you find out lol

 

Thats good estimate (although maybe can be different depending on distance)

 

You can also notice that its almost same cost (3 engineers for 1500 almost same), so it would be better than 1 miner if ore is too far, and will be worse if ore is adjacent to refinery

Edited by MapDesigner

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12 hours ago, fir3w0rx said:

3 standard oil derricks = 1 War/Chrono miner (roughly)

There's also the bonus you get when you capture it to consider.

12 hours ago, MapDesigner said:

I couldnt find this in the wiki except that the max benefit is 6 factories.

I think you were looking in the wrong place, because I know that you can get a production bonus beyond 6 factories. I think the entry on MultipleFactory is what you're looking for:

Quote

This now works differently than it did in previous C&C games and is now a straight discount cumulative multiplier. This determines the bonus (reduction) in build time for units or infantry produced from their respective FactoryType=. For example, when set to 0.8 you get a build speed bonus of 1.0 for having one factory, 0.8 for having two, 0.64 for having three, 0.512 for having four etc.

It's worth noting that MultipleFactory IS set to 0.8 in rulesmd.ini. Also, the equation for this, assuming the number of factories you own is x, your build speed is y and the MultipleFactory value is z, would be y=z^(x-1).

Edited by Chrono Vortex

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Also, original poster, I always was under the impression that 8x of a factory/barracks/shipyard/mcv is the maximum, not 6.

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@XXxPrePxX 

Well I had this information when searching google and first answer I found was from website called reddit and here is the quote of the answer:

Quote

War Factories and Barracks produce units faster the more you have; however, 6 war factories is the highest benefit, anything after that doesnt produce faster.

Tanks are greater than infantry in ra2 so, having more than 1-2 barracks isn't ideal. You should invest in tanks unless ofcourse your allieds and you want to mass rockies fast.

In some cases, people will build 2 war factories early in the game and sell mcv to have the money to keep pumping out tanks quick and rush an opponent. There's many strategies, countless. I usually stream some ra2 high competitive gameplay.

 

so I took it for granted and didnt try for more than 6 factories. here is the link https://www.reddit.com/r/redalert2/comments/2u8mrx/why_do_people_build_multiple_buildings/

 

@Chrono Vortex

well, I am not entirely sure I trust this 100%. My test values seem to be close eventually,  (@ 6 warfacts its 32% and mine is 33%), but it feels like mine is more accurate (@ 6 warfacts units produce exactly together)

 

anyway I did these tests multiple times and I kind feel results were ok and more close than you 80% with 2 factories (my results were between 86% and 90% all of them)

 

I also edited the OP to elaborate a bit more on how exactly I tested, so you can doubt anything you like. 

Edited by MapDesigner

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9 hours ago, XXxPrePxX said:

Also, original poster, I always was under the impression that 8x of a factory/barracks/shipyard/mcv is the maximum, not 6.

i believe its 10.

Edited by ZiGZaG

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9 hours ago, XXxPrePxX said:

I'm pretty sure the highest is 8 war factories.  If you can, you should try that out.

2 hours ago, ZiGZaG said:

i believe its 10.

If the wiki is to be believed, there is no maximum. But since the amount of time that gets knocked off your build speed every time you build an extra factory is determined by an exponential function, the benefit of building an extra factory would decrease the more you have. That could easily make it seem like there's a maximum.

Edited by Chrono Vortex

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Around ~10 yeah, from personal experience.
It's easier to test this in a laggy game, as the difference is more noticeable.

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what about multiple mcv?  is it the same ratio? and does it effect tank build time in addition to buildings?

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6 minutes ago, Lucifer said:

what about multiple mcv?  is it the same ratio? and does it effect tank build time in addition to buildings?

Multiple Construction yards do build faster. Is it same ratio? I can only assume it is. I didnt bother to test though, it is only logical to be same ratio lol

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44 minutes ago, MapDesigner said:

Multiple Construction yards do build faster. Is it same ratio? I can only assume it is. I didnt bother to test though, it is only logical to be same ratio lol

I find that my logic is often incorrect upon examining the results of an experiment.  Yes, mcvs produce buildings quicker. But I wasnt clear in the purpose to my question: do mcvs add an additional speed bonus to tank production on top of multiple warfactories ?

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4 hours ago, Chrono Vortex said:

If the wiki is to be believed, there is no maximum. But since the amount of time that gets knocked off your build speed every time you build an extra factory is determined by an exponential function, the benefit of building an extra factory would decrease the more you have. That could easily make it seem like there's a maximum.

This^

You can get an incredible build speed but it takes an incredible amount of structures built. I've tested massing mcvs during survival maps. I don't remember exactly, but I think it's about 50 mcvs and you'll pretty much have zero wait time; Just click and place. (It's funny playing in a 10fps survival with others and being the only one placing grand cannons as if game is running at 1000fps on my end.)

 

With warfactories multiple units will eventually start coming out of separate buildings all at once. So you can have 2 or 3 rhinos being made at a time.

Same for barrack and ground units.

Edited by aWarNoob1
  • Haha 1

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1 hour ago, Lucifer said:

I find that my logic is often incorrect upon examining the results of an experiment.  Yes, mcvs produce buildings quicker. But I wasnt clear in the purpose to my question: do mcvs add an additional speed bonus to tank production on top of multiple warfactories ?

No, they dont.

Edited by aWarNoob1

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Wow, I always thought the maximum was 8 and the function locked at that point in the game. Blows my mind that it is more then 8. Faulty information given to me by a superior when I was a young newb, apparently.

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4 hours ago, Chrono Vortex said:

If the wiki is to be believed, there is no maximum. But since the amount of time that gets knocked off your build speed every time you build an extra factory is determined by an exponential function, the benefit of building an extra factory would decrease the more you have. That could easily make it seem like there's a maximum.

hmmm, there seem to be more than one wiki actually. When I said wiki I meant CNC.wikia: https://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Red_Alert_2_Allied_Arsenal

as opposed to the one you linked https://www.modenc.renegadeprojects.com/MultipleFactory

 

not sure which one is official, but well, eitherway, I wouldnt take anything for granted. from my experience though, the cnc wiki is quite accurate. I dont recall an exactt error in there as of yet.

 

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7 hours ago, MapDesigner said:

hmmm, there seem to be more than one wiki actually. When I said wiki I meant CNC.wikia: https://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Red_Alert_2_Allied_Arsenal

as opposed to the one you linked https://www.modenc.renegadeprojects.com/MultipleFactory

 

not sure which one is official, but well, eitherway, I wouldnt take anything for granted. from my experience though, the cnc wiki is quite accurate. I dont recall an exactt error in there as of yet.

 

There is no official, those sites are updated by the community and I find a lot of inaccurate and incomplete info on the cnc wiki. Just be careful, don't believe what you read, believe what you play.

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you know what, I can maybe do stop watch test and adjust my game speed to arbitrary value and see how fast time changes, instead of time to create engineer or spy being my time unit lol

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2 hours ago, MapDesigner said:

you know what, I can maybe do stop watch test and adjust my game speed to arbitrary value and see how fast time changes, instead of time to create engineer or spy being my time unit lol

I think experiments relating to time/speed are best done using RA2/YR's built-in Multiplayer debug info which shows exactly how many frames have gone by.

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10 hours ago, fir3w0rx said:

I think experiments relating to time/speed are best done using RA2/YR's built-in Multiplayer debug info which shows exactly how many frames have gone by.

Eh o.O

how do I do that? just run Red alert from CNCnet client?  (last time I ran it, i didnt notice anything like that, but maybe it was tiny font hidden in the corner lol)

or is it with sending some message? (like -ping, -frames etc)

 

anyway, I was still surprised that this information we are extracting isnt that famous everywhere. if anything has handled this it is probably that wiki linked there saying its a factor of 0.8 and doesnt state any limit.

 

 

anyway, my speculation is that conscript build time is the minimum for any unit, I think.

Edited by MapDesigner

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42 minutes ago, MapDesigner said:

Eh o.O

how do I do that?

I don't know how to enable it with CnCNet's version of the RA2/YR, but with other versions you just right-click RA2/YR's shortcut icon -> Properties -> add -mpdebug to Target.

Example:

  • Target: "c:\games\ra2\ra2.exe " -mpdebug

You then open up the keyboard settings (in-game) and under Category there will be a new section called Debug.

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8 hours ago, fir3w0rx said:

I don't know how to enable it with CnCNet's version of the RA2/YR, but with other versions you just right-click RA2/YR's shortcut icon -> Properties -> add -mpdebug to Target.

Example:

  • Target: "c:\games\ra2\ra2.exe " -mpdebug

You then open up the keyboard settings (in-game) and under Category there will be a new section called Debug.

Alright, I will do that sometime.

 

However,  nobody as of yet posted any of there expirments (except Fir3Works first reply). I would like to remind every that in this topic not only you can discuss mentioned expirments, but rather can post any hidden features that you find interesting and that are not obvious to casual gamers. Who will post the second expirment? :3

also, I will eventually quote any expirement in the OP so that the list of expirements is easier to follow and find.

 

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:cabal: Pssst... do you want to know the best kept secret in the history of RA2/YR multiplayer about rhinos vs grizzlies that only the super-dooper pros know?

(I'm not kidding either, and this would change everyone's playing style with these two units, if you didn't know it already)

 

 

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1 hour ago, fir3w0rx said:

:cabal: Pssst... do you want to know the best kept secret in the history of RA2/YR multiplayer about rhinos vs grizzlies that only the super-dooper pros know?

(I'm not kidding either, and this would change everyone's playing style with these two units, if you didn't know it already)

 

 

Yes :O

 

but let me guess first: that they can strike while moving? XD

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