TS Viewpoint Conflict

[c0rpsmakr]

Just thought I would share this conversation so everyone could understand the two polar opposite points of view on this spectrum. Feel free to add your input if you would like to have more of a say in what happens, because I am quite tired of repeating myself honestly. 

I also understand that I'm not coming off very politely, but given that I've been badgered about this an excessive amount of times and that I didn't even want to get into this in the first place, I think it's definitely warranted. Regardless, I've changed the color font for the more important/relevant parts of the conversation, if you want to have a long read, this is here:

 

(9) [01:18 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> btw congrats on winning last month
(9) [01:18 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> hope he sent u a nice pc
(9) [01:18 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl>
(9) [04:10 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> if you have legit feedback on vet patch other than 'ww didnt do it' i would be glad to listen
(9) [04:10 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> assuming you know the actual changes
(9) [04:11 AM] <c0rpsmakr> there's nothing to say, ts isnt yours to screw with for everyone else, and the fact that anybody who even wants to attempt the ladder competitively HAS to play on humblefied ts is ridiculous.
(9) [04:11 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> im not the only one that made vet
(9) [04:11 AM] <c0rpsmakr> im done chatting with you about this
(9) [04:11 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> tons of players helped with feedback
(9) [04:11 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> your choice
(9) [04:11 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> as always, no actual feedback, just blanket statements
(9) [04:11 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> but im fine with not discussing it, no point actually
(9) [04:13 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> maybe you should be playing default ts on xwis with all the glitches and 52 fps and standard buggy maps if you like it so much ...
(9) [04:13 AM] <c0rpsmakr> i read all the alterations ages ago. ive specifically stated things that i would have done if i were to make my own mod for ts and not force it upon everyone else, like you've so generously done
(9) [04:13 AM] <c0rpsmakr> this was addressed MONTHS ago
(9) [04:13 AM] <c0rpsmakr> im not a parrot and repeating myself
(9) [04:13 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> i remember you stating something about power plants, half price or something?
(9) [04:13 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> (for nod)
(9) [04:14 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> or was it double power production
(9) [04:14 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> i really think either of those would make nod way more op than what vet does
(9) [04:15 AM] <c0rpsmakr> i literally said to reduce powerplants by $100, that's the only thing im going to repeat.
(9) [04:15 AM] <c0rpsmakr> and ONLY IF IT WERE MY MODIFIED TS FOR OTHERS TO TRY
(9) [04:15 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> you know you seem to always have a really poor and aggressive attitude, even when people are trying to be polite with you, i hope you realize that
(9) [04:17 AM] <c0rpsmakr> when people dont recognize that their selfish behavior negatively affects an entire community and refuses to understand/care about that, and keeps attempting to drudge up old topics and cherrypick statements that they "think" i said, or listen to what others incorrectly quote me as saying, then im not going to be polite
(9) [04:17 AM] <c0rpsmakr> i dont want to speak to someone that does this.
(9) [04:17 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> last game i asked you if it is true you said those things, i did not accuse you of saying them
(9) [04:17 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> how else am i supposed to know if it is true or not
(9) [04:18 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> you know there is a reason so many modders like giants all go nod, so many new players want to play ts and want to be nod, and basically get told they have to be gdi and pump titans and get depressed and turn to mods
(9) [04:18 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> you dont see me playing nod, and yet i have no problem on vet... gdi is still stronger faction in most cases
(9) [04:19 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> its a joke that 1 bomber can take out multiple deployed tick tanks, that they should be so weak when deployed, and its a joke cc cant hit any moving targets, two 800$ non tech titans rape a cc that is expensive, requires tech and ton2
(9) [04:20 AM] <c0rpsmakr> if you want to have a dialogue on gdi vs nod fairness, that's fine. but to completely overhaul the game in the way you see fit with input from a handfull of people, and force people who want to play the ladder to do so on your perspective of how the game should be is quite fucked up
(9) [04:21 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> default ts has no quickmatch, doesnt have all these maps, doesnt have all the patches and glitch fixes and features
(9) [04:21 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> it is also 52 fps, this is obviously not vanilla ts
(9) [04:21 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> in vanilla ts, you cant even expand out of tl without glitching or toggling
(9) [04:22 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> if people want to play the quickmatch in a fair and balanced environment, they are welcome to, if they want to play default maps they are also welcome to
(9) [04:22 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> yo know it takes between 30-60 hours to make a map for ts?
(9) [04:22 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> you*
(9) [04:22 AM] <c0rpsmakr> they're not, every single map on the ladder is vet.
(9) [04:22 AM] <c0rpsmakr> every one.
(9) [04:22 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> exactly, no one is forced to play it
(9) [04:22 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> default ts doesnt even have a quickmatch
(9) [04:22 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> or any of these maps
(9) [04:23 AM] <c0rpsmakr> so again, people are forced to choose between not playing the competitive ladder and having to play your version of ts.
(9) [04:23 AM] <c0rpsmakr> prior to this there were default maps on the quickmatch.
(9) [04:23 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> not my version, many others versions
(9) [04:23 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> the quickmatch was originall released with vet maps
(9) [04:23 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> then it for a while had vet / standard and also mods like giants
(9) [04:23 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> which is when it completely died
(9) [04:23 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> it has been more active in the past 3 or so months than it has ever been, by far
(9) [04:23 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> tons of mid skilled players have been active on it
(9) [04:24 AM] <c0rpsmakr> and i can tell you, it wasn't because the standard maps were there...
(9) [04:24 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> the goal is to bring more modders playing ww style maps, and not just giants
(9) [04:24 AM] <c0rpsmakr> if giants is on there along with other clearly faction biased mod maps, that's whats going to happen
(9) [04:24 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> you obviously have the option to set standard terrace, which is your choice
(9) [04:25 AM] <c0rpsmakr> and that's fine, but again, the entire point of this is that veteran maps should NOT be the default choice for the entire game's competitive scene...
(9) [04:25 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> the game wouldnt have a quickmatch or all these maps without people putting tons of time into it
(9) [04:26 AM] <c0rpsmakr> there should at the very least be options for people that want to play standard ts maps on the ladder.
(9) [04:26 AM] <c0rpsmakr> obviously, and nobody is bashing the work for fixing glitches or investing time into new maps
(9) [04:26 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> there are no standard ts maps that are even balanced, other than a couple firestorm ones, that wouldnt even work without tweaking the crystals to work without firestorm mode
(9) [04:26 AM] <c0rpsmakr> its the goddamn overhaul of making every single map a veteran map and pushing them all onto the ladder
(9) [04:26 AM] <c0rpsmakr> that's literally all.
(9) [04:27 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> look, its obvious we dont see eye to eye on this, but we dont need to be hostile with each other because of it, and soon i am going to update the vet patch with some tweaks that i think you might like, if you are willing to discuss things with me and help me tweak certain things, while trying to be somewhat flexible with me, it could be a good thing
(9) [04:28 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> for example, we increased the sub health by 25 so a mk cant 1 shot it, but obviously it also makes it slightly harder to defend eng attacks, so i plan to put that back to default
(9) [04:28 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> it is a lot of work to update the patch, i have to manually update each map all at once, so i would really (believe it or not) like some of your feedback before i do the next update
(9) [04:28 AM] <c0rpsmakr> humble, most players dont want unit health, firepower, range, armor, etc changed.
(9) [04:28 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> because i probably dont do it again for a while
(9) [04:29 AM] <c0rpsmakr> and most people dont want those changes forcibly implemented on the ladder
(9) [04:29 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> tick tanks are the same, unless deployed, when deployed the default armor is concrete, which bombers 1 shot
(9) [04:29 AM] <c0rpsmakr> at the very least, half of the maps should be standard
(9) [04:29 AM] <c0rpsmakr> at the very least, if you REALLY want to be "fair" about things
(9) [04:29 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> other than that, deployed tick tanks have +50 health
(9) [04:29 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> do you honestly think that a bomber should be able to 1 shot a deployed tick tank, all other things aside?
(9) [04:30 AM] <c0rpsmakr> tiberian sun isn't mine, yours, skylegends, or anybody or collective of players' property to change for everyone who wants to play competitively
(9) [04:30 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> the extra 50 health aside, just the armor being concrete while deployed
(9) [04:30 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> if no one changed ts, we wouldnt even have a quickmatch to play on, default ts on wol/xwis was more than broken
(9) [04:30 AM] <c0rpsmakr> im not interested in discussing specific unit aspects with you, ive stated what ive said all along
(9) [04:31 AM] <c0rpsmakr> let me make this perfectly clear.
(9) [04:31 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> im aware of what you have said, but you have an opportunity to affect the vet patch, even if it were only 50% of the maps on the ladder it would still be there in that example
(9) [04:31 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> you really should consider discussing unit aspects with me, why not, what do you have to loose?
(9) [04:31 AM] <c0rpsmakr> quickmatch- good, glitch fixing-good, changing unit armor/firepower/range and forcing everyone to play it who wants to play the ladder-bad
(9) [04:33 AM] <c0rpsmakr> my time, and again, its not my place to affect ts for everyone else negatively.
(9) [04:33 AM] <c0rpsmakr> everything is opinion, im not fucking with it for other people
(9) [04:33 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> if you think its so negative now, why not make legit suggestions to make it 'less negative'
(9) [04:33 AM] <c0rpsmakr> becuase it shouldn't be done in the first place@
(9) [04:33 AM] <c0rpsmakr> jesus
(9) [04:33 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> cc can hit moving targets better: takes 3 properly Qed titans to kill it, rather than 2, and it can harv hunt better
(9) [04:33 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> is that really so bad?
(9) [04:34 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> in the next update i am returning the sub health back to normal, so you dont have to worry about that
(9) [04:34 AM] <c0rpsmakr> there's a reason cc cant hit things that are moving half the time
(9) [04:34 AM] <c0rpsmakr> but again, im not getting into these things with you, as i have 0 interest
(9) [04:34 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> well enlighten me then, why should cc be so bad at hitting moving targets
(9) [04:35 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> thats really in my opinion the biggest change in vet patch as far as nod goes
(9) [04:38 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> however much you dislike me, you have an opportunity right now for your feedback to be seriously taken into consideration as far as the vet patch goes
(9) [04:38 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> even if you dont play the ladder, people obviously set the maps, and you obviously will be playing them time to time
(9) [04:38 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> why not have your feedback taken into account
(9) [04:39 AM] <c0rpsmakr> this is literally the last time i will say this to you: TS is NOT mine, yours, or anybody else's to force unit armor/firepower/range, or any similar alterations upon
(9) [04:39 AM] <c0rpsmakr> i will not contribute to that.
(9) [04:40 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> in that case there shouldnt be cncnet, quickmatch, new maps, new server, any of this, and all games should be 52 fps, etc
(9) [04:40 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> but since you refuse to discuss anything with me ill stop pestering you, have a nice day (i really mean that)
(9) [04:40 AM] <c0rpsmakr> none of that changes units or buildings, etc
(9) [04:40 AM] <c0rpsmakr> none of that
(9) [04:40 AM] <c0rpsmakr> i cant make it any more clear
(9) [04:43 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> 60fps changes the game more than anything honestly
(9) [04:43 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> and the patch that makes harvs go out of wf straight to tib also, which i was against and had no control over
(9) [04:43 AM] <c0rpsmakr> all that does is force people to think/play faster
(9) [04:43 AM] * [CoCo]Humbl is away (In game with: Shredded Tigerr Str0hk0pf Killernav [NME] [S-N-F]_07_) [Terrace[Ally][Vet.2.46]]
(9) [04:43 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> it also limits the amount of micro that can be done at once, and changes how people play depending on how fast the game is
(9) [04:44 AM] <c0rpsmakr> as i said, i tforces people to think/play faster
(9) [04:44 AM] * [CoCo]Humbl is away (In game with: Shredded Tigerr Str0hk0pf Killernav [NME] [S-N-F]_07_) [Terrace[Ally][Vet.2.46]]
(9) [04:44 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> at 52 fps there is a lot more time to thin and react to things, which is why a lot of players have a harder time on cncnet
(9) [04:45 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> black told me u been playing on a smaller monitor than the one he sent u, but he didnt tell me how small, but i play on a 22.5 inch monitor and it makes gameplay so much better than my old montitor
(9) [04:45 AM] <[CoCo]Humbl> so i hope the one he sent you makes your gameplay more enjoyable

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by c0rpsmakr

[Hungry Mike]

I want to express my biggest gratitude to Humble: The Vet Bal Mod is simply amazing! Many others LOVE it too: Ask Mola, NME, Hitman, Rob and so on from the WW pros or all the mid tier WW players or Mod pros like Firestar, me, Venotux, Stylewarz... . 

So is the ladder! I played 2 games against Mola and almost had him one time, grrr . But hes just a boss in TS. Were tough and fun games!

The ladder was dead at the beginning of this year, now more and more ppl play it. Maybe we will get a TS League some day?

As to your points, Corps: I agree, that noone should be forced to play certain maps or in a certain way. If players want to play the old maps, they should be able to do it on the ladder. If someone wants to play FS on the ladder or without short game, this should be allowed too. Problem is tho, that a player, who uses a bug, would be called a winner (although he lost: rule breaking), and noone could do anything about it. That would really take the fun out for many people, because old players would try to force new ones to play the old maps only, and then use for instance 2-tit-q-cc-bug.  So i can understand, that Humble lets only Vet Bal Maps be in the pool. Maybe you can make with him together maps, which kill many of the bugs, but dont change the old settings?

Thx to Humble, hungry Arnolds are now marching through the Battlefields, eating up poor gdi soldiers, Obelisks can withstand bomber attacks, CCs wont be triggered by 2 little titans anymore. The Gdi fools, who took control over WW after the First Tiberian War, are finally on their run! And Nod will become the stronger faction, as it was in the first C&C (TD).

So take this  advice from ARNOLD and move on:

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Hungry Mike

[Weaponx]

Humble is 100% correct.

First of this is not vanilla tiberian sun, it is 20 years later, and a new server with faster speeds, and new features.

If you dislike this you can really go back to xwis, and are on the wrong server, it is that simple.

That said, the vet patch fixes issues which 100% would have been done if EA/Westwood continued to work with tiberian sun. Like any other game, there are always hot fixes to adjust and balance the game, just look at all games online.

The vet patch focuses mainly on nod, since they are very weak on many points and the balance fix is minor, but effective.

For instance:

Tick has 50more hp only when deployed, and same armor as a titan when bombed. A titan will still win 1 on 1 against a tick which  is deployed.
Cyborg commando does not miss so much like it used to, but the damage is the same, so is the health. 
Sub has 25 more hp, meaning it takes a mk 2 shots to kill it, it barely have any hp left after 1st shot. But this will be changed again to 1 shot, since lesser skilled players complain about it.
GDI can make an ion cannon without having to keep tech center after component is built, just directly like nod missile.

They are minor changes, and most nod units are still useless and UN-used, that's a fact.

In 1v1 or 2v2, who ever makes a stealth tank, cyborgs, or tick rushes? No one. Now with the tick HP adjusted, it makes it more viable, like a titan rush, but its defeated easy by a run of bombers from GDI, or a equally titan rush.

 

If you dont like the ladder and maps, dont play it, but dont cry about it either.

Clearly a lot of people who complain about the nod changes, a) Do not play nod b) Do not play nod at a competitive level  like i do. I know what i am talking about.

Some bugs have also been fixed in vet, making it superior, but some players will  always basically whine about it for no valid reason.

As for corps, you have read the patch notes? its funny i still remember you complaining about Arts are overpowered, yet, they haven't been changed. My point being because you lose, it is not vet that is the cause. Even tiger has come with absolute incorrect statements about vet, when losing like:

*faster harvs to collect tib
*nod inf are stronger, engs run faster
*CC has more hp
*Ticks have more range and damage

all incorrect statements.

Game play is the same and comparing vet balanced patch to Giants mod games, is a complete joke.  Honestly just idiotic players put up these comparisons. Giants have fast driving harvs and drop of cash making money almost infinite, they blow up on green tib and destroy buildings. Giants is basically a spawn unit game to win.  

Playing vet on official maps is nothing like giants, and req. strategy and tactics.
 

Are you for fixing bugs or are you for keeping them? I mean that's what it comes down to. IF you are for keeping them, i might as-well use inf to steal titans and harvs, subs below ground, apcs, mks. You get my point?

I see no valid arguments for vet being bad at all. If you stated, ticks 50HP more is to much, make it 30HP, it could be debated.As for vet being humbles, also in correct, a lot of players have had their input in the vet changes including me.

 

 

 

 

[NME]

mola is a 100% right  

 

 

[Holland]

Since ts is free, it is only supported by fans that put their own precious time in it. It also has to keep up with the time, and new players. I am a mod player, and so all the changes that are made keeps me curious. I really enjoy vet patch, honestly i don't ever play ww maps but vet patch changed that cuz my fellow mod players started playing them too, to spawn cyborgs lmao who wouldve thought. Also to gather upgrade status is an actual thing now. TS deserves to be tuned by their players imo

[Hungry Mike]

33 minutes ago, Holland said:

I really enjoy vet patch, honestly i don't ever play ww maps but vet patch changed that cuz my fellow mod players started playing them too, to spawn cyborgs lmao who wouldve though

I dont know who you are reffering too     but their name is "Arnolds", and they have feelings too!

Mola is right 99 %. Do you want bugs, corps? Who is that crazy and unfair lol?

1 hour ago, Weaponx said:

In 1v1 or 2v2, who ever makes a stealth tank, cyborgs, or tick rushes? No one. Now with the tick HP adjusted, it makes it more viable, like a titan rush, but its defeated easy by a run of bombers from GDI, or a equally titan rush.

1 hour ago, Weaponx said:

Giants is basically a spawn unit game to win.  

Playing vet on official maps is nothing like giants, and req. strategy and tactics.

You can play Giants shitty or well. For instance, Firestar, Zoom or me are much better on GSO or Giants than on WW maps, and WW pros less good on mod maps. Its a question of taste. We play for fun. You dont have to be the best RA, TD or Dune player, to be the best TS player; and you dont have to be good on WW maps/mod maps for vice versa. But i agree with you, Mola, that many noobs on Giants just spam units and bunker. They are not only easy fodder for CCs and Devils, they are also boring.

So true tho, that we have now many more options for Nod. Even using Obelisks is no worth a try!

Instead of complaining all the time, you should thank Humble and the others for their hard work. Many noobs can now enjoy WW maps or between-mod-and-WW- maps as well and more ppl are playing!

[c0rpsmakr]

This will be the only time that I respond, because clearly what I said hasn't been received. 

Glitch fixes- good, new maps- good, forcing alterations to unit functions on anyone who wants to play ts competitively- bad.

Unit changes and bug fixes do not have to coincide in the same patch/maps.

[Black]

Corps, I think you should examine your perspective about one thing. TS, is absolutely in fact, OURS. The developers abandoned it. The game belongs to the community that loves it.

[Black]

@WeaponX

Tiger is just trolling you

[Tro0per07]

.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Tro0per07
not finished

[Mox]

personally, the fixes, imo have been a huge thing making things balanced out..improving the game...before there were so many glitches, like planes off map ect there are more don't care to list. but also with the small buff cause its not even that big to nod is very needed. I mean you could just make titans and run right through a base ez kill, or how bombers like 1 shot everything and nod inf ect. tbh the buffs are not even that much of increase and that is by choice if u choose to play the maps or not.

[Tro0per07]

13 hours ago, c0rpsmakr said:

its a joke that 1 bomber can take out multiple deployed tick tanks, that they should be so weak when deployed, and its a joke cc cant hit any moving targets, two 800$ non tech titans rape a cc that is expensive, requires tech and ton2

I would lie if i said something different, but hes right. I could write a lot but since I already lost the other text because of a bug, I just say in general i think the changes are fair.
Be honest if u play against the best, these changes dont matter

 

[Tigerr]

Thanks first Humble for the work I think that a lot is very good and the whole bugs are fixed! But the harvs and the subst change the game on pro level something very much would be good if you change something again! To make infs more important again thx

[Phenomena]

While Joe I love you long time, and understand your viewpoint, I think its a little out dated.

I havent played much in the last several months, and definitely not at top tier level anymore, however a simple change to the CC being able to not miss, as well as the deployed tik tank buff, makes a massive difference in higher level play.
The amount of times my 10 Tiks would die to 1 bomber pass was fucking ridiculous.

There was no doubt that GDI would dominate NOD in almost all even games, these fixes bring the gap a little closer, and I see no issue with that at all.

[WonderWorm]

I have always tried to get strong bbg players like ender and rami or miki to come play terrace but they would never come. But now they are getting on more and more since the vet maps bridge the learning gap. And they are getting good at it so you no longer have to kill 30 minutes for a game to start since im seeing more players at night now.

 

 

[steelc0ck]

From what I've read, it appear that C0rps is a purist - which is not nessacarily a good or bad thing, but telling him how much better VET is isn't the right approach, as it doesn't appear he's arguing that perspective. He's arguing on ideology / principles - that the most "pure" form of TS is as the developers intended it and that all others sources of modification are non-authentic fan fiction..

I suspect he doesn't like seeing people shoehorned into the non-original version - regardless of whether it's a more balanced game. This is why he's *not* discussing particular issues with VET, because it's not the point: you're building a non-secular version of TS that's forced onto other players, which is a valid perspective. Although this doesn't mean that the "purist" approach is the "right" approach to supporting the community, it's just a valid perspective.

The better discussion here is: is there a balance difficiency in vanilla TS? I think he would agree that there is a balance issue in vanilla ts (as outlined by humble - and as most experienced players are aware), and is that balance issue damaging the TS community (particularly competitive gameplay). If that's agreed on, then the question becomes: what compromises should be made (And are nessacary) for the benefit of the community and that ideally preserve the original gameplay experience. He may agree that Vet is not canon / non-secular, but he may also agree that a more balanced patch benefits the community and that it's a nesscary change.

Don't try to explain to c0rps how much better vet is, I don't think that's the point he's trying to make.

Edited April 11, 2020 by steelc0ck

[Tibermach]

yeah i saw the ladder sucks more ass now nothing oldskool ww 

[Weaponx]

"you're building a non-secular version of TS that's forced onto other players, which is a valid perspective. "

No the server has the copy rights and it is their server, also they  give you the option NOT to play ladder if you dislike it. Since you talk about "original" there was no quick ladder in original,.

Another thing 95% of the players  who currently play it prefer the balanced path. If people like corps dislike it, they  can host their games with the option not to play VET, the option is still there and has not been removed. 

 

I personally think cncnet should implement it IG and say that how it is, end of story.

 

 

[Black]

19 hours ago, steelc0ck said:

From what I've read, it appear that C0rps is a purist - which is not nessacarily a good or bad thing, but telling him how much better VET is isn't the right approach, as it doesn't appear he's arguing that perspective. He's arguing on ideology / principles - that the most "pure" form of TS is as the developers intended it and that all others sources of modification are non-authentic fan fiction..

I suspect he doesn't like seeing people shoehorned into the non-original version - regardless of whether it's a more balanced game. This is why he's *not* discussing particular issues with VET, because it's not the point: you're building a non-secular version of TS that's forced onto other players, which is a valid perspective. Although this doesn't mean that the "purist" approach is the "right" approach to supporting the community, it's just a valid perspective.

The better discussion here is: is there a balance difficiency in vanilla TS? I think he would agree that there is a balance issue in vanilla ts (as outlined by humble - and as most experienced players are aware), and is that balance issue damaging the TS community (particularly competitive gameplay). If that's agreed on, then the question becomes: what compromises should be made (And are nessacary) for the benefit of the community and that ideally preserve the original gameplay experience. He may agree that Vet is not canon / non-secular, but he may also agree that a more balanced patch benefits the community and that it's a nesscary change.

Don't try to explain to c0rps how much better vet is, I don't think that's the point he's trying to make.

You should reword this to as developers "left it" as opposed to "intended it".. It's likely that the developers, had the continued to support the game, would have moved in a direction similar to what the Vet patch offers. Which promotes balance and units having a purpose. However, they elected to abandon the project in pursuit of other endeavors that would earn them more money.

Is it not reasonable to assume that the devs wanted a game that was balanced and for their units and structures to all have a purpose? It's well documented that the game was rushed to release in a highly unfinished state due to pressure from EA. In my opinion, leaving TS in its legacy state is giving in to a extremely predatory companies desire to maximize profit at the expense of quality and completion(Something they have been guilty of and highly criticized for on countless occations. Is it not a reasonable assumption that if Westwood had continued to update and expand the game that they would have made changes to existing units/structures as well as added content to complete their vision? That is all that the vet patch has done. It's not changing the game, it's completing it. You are holding respect and authority to developers that sold out and abandoned their project. (I'm not saying that's a bad thing as the entire point of having a business is to make money, but nonetheless, it negatively impacted their products).

I really don't understand why anyone holds the legacy state of these games in such high regard as their were so many problems, oversights, and incompleteness. There are interviews from developers stating that they had planes on many changes and content, for example, the drop pods were intended to be customizable with which infantry units they dropped, and was intended to be released prior to the firestorm expansion (Explain why pre-firestorm GDI has no counter to the NOD chem missle?). Therefore arguing that TS should be left alone is arguing that the game should be left in a incomplete, broken, sold out state of extreme unbalance, constant errors, and perpetual latency problems.

I encourage everyone to embrace the effort of progress put fourth by the communities intelligent, rational, open minded, and hard working players that have decades of intimate experience and understanding of the game. And let us all collaborate appropriate  and intended updates to perfect the game.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Black

[steelc0ck]

2 hours ago, Black said:

You should reword this to as developers "left it" as opposed to "intended it"..

Possibly the case. However an unfinished game de facto doesn't mean that the balancing was wrong - it just means that some parts were unfinished. Game developers generally build games for the masses not for highly competitive gameplay - this is an important note. A balance for pros may not nessacarily be what's optimal for new players that are often quite slow.

It's entirely conceivable that WW were balancing in favor of GDI for the average player that don't have the abilities of pro players and that balancing artefacts like overpowered bombers and weak subs were entirely intentional as their beta testers and early user community (that are likely similar in ability to new players today) may have had difficulty overcoming nods stronghold abilities and that 11 banshees were seen as overpowered, so they strengthened gdi.

Conversely, vet was developed by pro players, for pro players. I'm sure that it will be argued that "what is best for pro players is good for all players", and if it is the case with Vet then, it would be by coincidence, not by design as the patch appears hyper geared towards geared competitive players. I haven't heard of much beta testing with average players, if there was then I suspect you would see that average GDI players would have high difficulty breaking a vet Nod bunk due to lack of game sense or control.

Different beta testing sample groups (particularly if those groups range in level of experience and ability) will likely produce different optimal balancings. It's possible that WW developed a good balance for average players but one that had clear deficiencies for advanced players.

There's a saying: "it's easier to break a highly complicated system than it is to improve it", I generally err on the side of caution because there may be unintended consequences of changes that you make (as outlined above).

4 hours ago, Weaponx said:

No the server has the copy rights and it is their server, also they  give you the option NOT to play ladder if you dislike it. Since you talk about "original" there was no quick ladder in original,.

Yes it's true, Dan could turn CnCnet into an exciting pokemon game if he had inclination to do so. My comments were more about recognising c0rps' perspective and reframing the approach to be about what is good for the community (and not nessacarily about how much "better" the vet patch is) rather than exploring who had ultimate control over the server or rights to the game.

I'm not sure if c0rps is looking this deeply into the balancing but it's interesting to consider how WW originally balanced the game and the sample group they were designing the game for. However my point was more about looking to approach opponents to vet (c0rps, honda etc) in a way that looks at the positive effect vet could have on the community and get them to rally behind this rather than to directly espouse vet's superiority.

[Weaponx]

WW did not finish  the game at all, as said it was just rushed. They barely made it to fix some larger issues and left the rest.  
 

Also  as I stated if WW was alive they would be fixes set in motion, the vet option is the closet we get to a fix.

 

That said players like grey do not play nod 1v1 or 2v2, because it is to hard and unbalanced for them to even compete at high levels. I’ve seen greys not and I’m not impressed, and corps has solid gameplay but his 2v2 nod just gets rekt, probably why they do not play it at high level gaming.
 

Also another fact, 90% of the players play gdi, due to the fact that not only is nod hard (even on vet) but it just is unbalanced to start with. (Until the vet minor fixes has tried to fix the issue).

 

Anyway you all have the option to not play vet, no need to convince anyone.

For the record, I couldn’t care less about greyhonda, and his views. You balance a game and ask him why he dislike it, and the answer is the trees look bad, which have no effect on units stats.  Then he brings up things he thinks has been edited, because he loses.

At the end of the day quick match is fine and so is vet, and the majority  of the  community agrees on this. Cncnet have been doing a great job.

If those few people really dislike vet, ladder etc, feel free to open your own game, and set your map, if that’s not enough, xwis is still online.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Weaponx

[|Noob|]

To all those who say vet ain't good enough or it sux

U go make something better than that

Vet is awesome

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by |Noob|

[Tibermach]

vet is definitely a different game than TS... is xwis really still going? lol

 

[Black]

56 minutes ago, Tibermach said:

vet is definitely a different game than TS... is xwis really still going? lol

 

Considering you are one of the 4 members of the TS community that doesn't support the vet patch, I'd appreciate contributing more than baseless conjecture to this discussion.

[Weaponx]

3 hours ago, Tibermach said:

vet is definitely a different game than TS... is xwis really still going? lol

 

So 3 titans to kill a CC instead of 2 is a Different  game? And ive still seen it done with Q and 2 from skilled players.

And ticks with same HP,  speed and damage, but take same damage as titans when bombed and require being deployed is a different game?

That’s the huge difference, since sub has been reverted to same HP.

So these to small changes, are a different game? Damn, so each time they are hot fixes in any games today, it is a different game? 
 

What an absolute  statement of none sense ,  from a player, who is fairly new to ts compared to the players who have been giving feedback to the vet changes and played for years. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Weaponx