July Ladder Change

[c0rpsmakr]

It's honestly painful to even go through and bother addressing the utter nonsense throughout that gigantic post.

Key Points-

-This ladder isn't fair, and the fact that you believe it is, and also believe that it's fine for a group of players to take their opinions on balancing should supersed those set in place by those who designed this game and their metrics that have been in place for decades, ironically demonstrates the sort of delusions of gradeur you're referring to. A majority of the maps on the ladder are now nod-favored, none of you even have the credibility as players to decide what metrics to change, much less authority to do so. I have refused to give my perspective on the balancing solely because I dont want to be a part of this initiative to change the game itself for every person who's ever played and wants to play in the future.  

-Repeating yourself over and over and "challenging" my posts that have 0 argument in them whatsoever and filling them with your moronic twisted babble is not doing any good for those wanting to make an impact.

- Regardless of how many active people actually vote on polls on the forum, that doesn't invalidate those who don't want to see TS altered, and just because you say "it's just a handful" doesn't make it true. All in all, that doesn't matter at this point. The admins noticed a severe drop in activity after an entire pool of vet maps was set in place, that's why they, unprompted, asked for suggestions.

- As far as your sentiment that nobody I've taught has become anyone decent (which, aside from being the most jackass thing you've said in this entire topic, is entirely irrelevant). You are so ignorant to who I've even taught over the years, and a majority of them are are far better than you, and are part of games for your useless ass to sit there and and make unwanted and terribly misguided commentary on from the past or present which include the following: Favortlsm, Killernav, Carnage, Zenetuskn/Statuspro, Energy52, Hitman, and Gohan, just from the top of my head. In the 14 years I've been doing it, I'm sure there are more. There are so many others that I've given passing tips to, including yourself, or that have seen videos of my games and gained something from that, or seeked me out for a lesson or two, many of whom won't admit to doing so. If I honestly cared to, I would go through every page in this forum and post a link of my topics where I've made guides on a number of game subjects, which is why people continue to ask me to help them out. What have you contributed to the growth of the player base? A self-righteous, coattail riding attitude that you've had since Middlesky played, along with a deluded and inflated sense of importance without doing anything to deserve it? What brand new players have you taken into games, taught hotkeys to, told them how to adjust resolutions, walked them through the absolute basics of map understanding, scouting/antiscouting, economy management, etc with? How many? I've done this HUNDREDS of times over since 2005 or 6. What efforts have you brought to this game that even on a microscopic level actually contribute to furthering the good of the population? Made a few youtube videos in recent times with poor perspective and judgemental commentary? Oh, you did attempt to bolster activity on the ladder by incentivizing it a couple times, which I actually gave you props on back then, so good job there. I however have been trying to make this game better for everyone for over 14 years... How delusional and simple of you to try and discredit my efforts by having your argument as "youve never taught anybody good". What a clown.

- I can't count the amount of times I've said this- nobody ever argued that ts is 100% fair, not a soul. But taking a game that's been in existence and fucking with the unit specs after 20 years and forcing everybody who plays/ever will play by those standards is so wrong and not the way to help. 

- The reason you don't like me is that I won a computer that you put up as a ladder prize and found that I actually didn't care for it, and have been in opposition to this vet map takeover since its conception. That's at the core of it, and frankly I don't care. Your piss-poor attitude and outlook has put me and a number of people off since you've crawled back to the game and began permanently being the peanut gallery as a spectator. 

Feel free to get the last word in because I've said all that I have to say to you, nor do I care to follow your lead in this derailment of a prospectively good topic. 

 

My apologies DKeeton and anyone else reading to actually try and contribute.

Edited July 3, 2020 by c0rpsmakr

[Avesta]

All that typing and you didn’t provide a single comment not already refuted in my previous post.

Nod favored maps are fair provided that you have the option to play Nod. And I can’t really think of any besides the 6-8 player maps in which I always reject all of anyway. 

If your going to sit there and proclaim that objectively balanced maps are “unfair” then that kinda retards all the subjective things you have to say by default. 

i do think somethings wrong with you for preferring to play a PVP game on an 8 year old laptop with a 12 inch monitor over the PC you won. But that’s no reason to dislike someone. You think your infallible and claim the people who worked on VET are inferior to you. While it’s an objective reality that you are no where near as good as you think you are and almost everyone who was involved is way better and more knowledgeable at the game than you. I can’t do the crazy things people like carnage, cambria, humble and others can do but even I can see so many holes in your game play and consider you to be 0 threat in a 2v2 game. I’d seriously be more concerned about someone like steelcore being across from me. I know for a fact you are going to do the same thing in every game, you will be very weak with infantry, you aren’t going to ever warn or support your partner.. I can essentially ignore you outside of harvester hunting. And then watch you blame your ally after losing. You are objectively an 8/10 player who had a style that only works in 1v1s and focuses on boring your opponents to death. Your 7/10 at best on any map other than terrace.  

I fully stand by everything I said about the people you’ve “trained” as well. Carnage is there only person who is competitive and I’d honestly question how much you even added to his ability considering how quickly he improved to the point where he could beat you without even taking you seriously.

Anyways, we aren’t going to leave TS in an unfair state just because that’s the way you want it. Which you’ve clearly said is the case.. you acknowledge it’s not fair and you proclaim wanting it to stay that way. And once again, you are free to put yourself at any disadvantage you would like in your private games. But fairness and equality must be forced upon players participating in competition. And you trying to force people to play in competition with unfair advantages is disgusting to me.

I’m glad to see you’ve decided to stop posting. As there is no point unless you can actually provide an argument with relevant substance. But we both know there is no argument to be made on your view since we are literally arguing fair vs unfair. Show your face again and I will always be here to stop you from sabotaging progress.

[Mole40k]

Ok, perhaps it's time for a different perspective... 

• What is the purpose of the ladder?
• Why should anyone play on the ladder?
• What should a player on the ladder expect, in terms of a fair and competitive environment?

[Weaponx]

There is a huge unbalanced between gdi and nod, and the vet patches aims and hits correct fixing this.  (Original game developer, said they never finished the game and for instance tick armor upgrade is great, since tick was never meant to be as weak as it is)

Vet maps also distributes tib pretty even and fair on maps, so one player wont have more benifite econ wise compared to the other. (origianl game developer, said they often just toss around tib, measuring eye wise, and never did think to make it fair, which is a mistake from their side).

 

This new cnc ladder with random selected teams and player you face, is fair, and so is the vet fixes and maps. Anyone who claims otherwise, do not know what they are talking about.  I have seen no valid reasons not to like vet fixes and maps.

As for winning the pc corpsmakr, you won by 6 points vs me, and i  waited 1½ hour for a game and didnt get one. (unlucky on final day)

Also you farmed some newb 10x in row for pts, where i actually played different players, i would  never play 1 rubish player 3min games just for points.

Then again thats the difference between me and you.

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Weaponx

[Phenomena]

Christ...watching you guys bicker back and forth about things that really dont matter or address the issue.

Ignore Vet or non vet maps, the issue is ladder activity. Simple.

And the reality is, only a very small handful will even think about playing the ladder, regardless of what maps are on it.

Heres an idea, put ONLY mod maps on the ladder for a month. Not a single WW style map. See if theres a dramatic increase of people playing ladder (aim to attract the 95% of people on cncnet who are modders)

Youll get your answer.

Im willing to bet you wont see any notable difference.

You guys are just wasting your time at annoying eachother and not understanding that maybe the vast majority of players simply arnt interested in the ladder.

[Hungry Mike]

8 hours ago, Avesta said:

Other than weaponx, people who favor VET have never played the QM ladder with or without vet maps because the QM ladder is a bad concept for TS and 99% of players don't like or care about 1v1s.

Lets go back to the topic. As i said earlier, its just one month, and its absolutely normal for a Ladder that the rate of users is volatile.

But something that will infect the user rate big time is allowing team games in the ladder. The same for allowing Giants to be a part of it. The biggest reason why people dont use it i guess is that they are afraid to get raped by better players. But the more noobs play, the more wins they will possibly get against each other and the more fun they will have; and then we will have more players. So: If you really want more players, allow team games and put Giants in the pool.

The better approach in the longrun would be in my opinion tho to just make it a league. To include ALL you could change between Vet and NonVet randomly, the same for the map that is played. We dont have to play all on one day, some are lazy or log off, are in holidays, and so on. Make it so flexible, that people can come back and play all their missed games even 1 or 2 months later. I really think, many would love to be a part of that.

6 hours ago, c0rpsmakr said:

I can't count the amount of times I've said this- nobody ever argued that ts is 100% fair, not a soul. But taking a game that's been in existence and fucking with the unit specs after 20 years and forcing everybody who plays/ever will play by those standards is so wrong and not the way to help. 

So you say: X is unfair, but its wrong to make it fair. Very smart! So unfairness is good, fairness is bad. But fair = good, bad = unfair; so bad is not bad, good is not good = Logical error (Socrates said that 2400 years ago, and ppl still dont get it lol), so you make no sense. You talked so much, and still dont criticize one specific thing vet changed. What is that mysterious "fucking with the unit specs"? 8 Tanks cant get bombed to death by one shot, 2 tits wont q-kill Nod's supposedly finest weapon (CC), Arnolds wont be shit against the thing they should eat up for breakfest (inf) anymore, Tib on map is fair, Stealth tanks can q, a thing many dreamed about for quiet some time... - is that what you mean by "fucking" with them? lol

6 hours ago, c0rpsmakr said:

it's fine for a group of players to take their opinions on balancing should supersed those set in place by those who designed this game and their metrics that have been in place for decades, ironically demonstrates the sort of delusions of gradeur you're referring to.

You didnt even know that Stealth tanks can shoot flying objects (even on purely original TS) 3 weeks ago but want to lecture others, thats amusing.

6 hours ago, c0rpsmakr said:

I've done this HUNDREDS

You know the german title of "We were soldiers" means "We were heroes". I guess it would be a movie about you. A hero, whos great intellect and superior mindset frightened the universe; a guy, who was merciful enough to share in the fruits of his Einstein-Bach-Platon like brain with some plebs... who enlightened the TS community for decades, when darkness was the only thing in the room. Lol.

6 hours ago, c0rpsmakr said:

The reason you don't like me is that I won a computer that you put up as a ladder prize and found that I actually didn't care for it,

Please clap. You dodged Mola and farmed a noob to get that prize, but criticize others for using more than one name, lol. The hypocrisy is strong with this one.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Hungry Mike

[Sol]

#1: I do like most of the balance changes. Not because it makes the game more fair but because it makes the game less frustrating (a super-unit that needs the highest tech in the game is missing the most basic offensive/defensive unit? LOL?).

#2: Balance is highly dependant on the map. Not convinced? Play a 1v1 on FF and then on Terrace (Nod v GDI). Tell me the dynamics are not completely different.

#3: That being said, I am convinced that most maps in the current pool are Nod favored, but all Nod players are giga-shit except Mola.

#4: I've seen ridiculous claims where people have clicked on the warning label in the lobby, the first thing they saw was
######## POSSIBLE CHEATS ########
The IQ value of GDI has been changed from Unknown to 0
The Edge value of GDI has been changed from Unknown to North
The Allies value of GDI has been changed from Unknown to GDI
The Credits value of GDI has been changed from Unknown to 0
The NodeCount value of GDI has been changed from Unknown to 0
The TechLevel value of GDI has been changed from Unknown to 0
The PercentBuilt value of GDI has been changed from Unknown to 0
The PlayerControl value of GDI has been changed from Unknown to yes

and their reaction was "GDI UNITS HAVE BEEN SECRETLY MADE WEAKER!" (no joke).

So where do we go from here? As most of us have taken long breaks of this game, it is sometimes hard for people (including me) to keep track of what caused what. ("Why is my mk walking? Is it because of cncnet? Is it because of the balance patch? Was it always like that?") ("Why are my harvs randomly getting stuck and going afk? That must be new from cncnet"). A lot of dislike that the vet/balance patch gets is totally misplaced and comes from rumours and disinformation.

- Do NOT tie Vet & Balance patch to maps. Give us 2 seperate checkboxes for them and have them explained WELL somewhere.
- Give us complete and comprehensive patch notes about any change cncnet has made to TS.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Sol

[amokk]

 

 

"dkeeton  June was a bad month for the Tiberian Sun ladder.

                 What needs to be done to get activity up?"

 

here is some more nonsense..

if you add the maps others play, like they play them (without the vet mod,

I think more would consider playing the tourney.

 

but if you add a map that we play but you changed the following,   probably not as many.....

 

 

On 7/3/2020 at 5:38 AM, Sol said:

Give us complete and comprehensive patch notes

vet patch  (or a mod is a mod is a mod)

The Strength value of NAOBEL has been changed from 725 to 600
The ROF value of LaserFire has been changed from 120 to 46
The Trainable value of CYBORG has been changed from Unknown to no
The Trainable value of E3 has been changed from Unknown to no
The Trainable value of CYC2 has been changed from no to yes
The Elite value of CYC2 has been changed from Unknown to EliteCyCannon
The EliteAbilities value of CYC2 has been changed from Unknown to SELF_HEAL,FASTER
The Elite value of BGGY has been changed from Unknown to EliteRaiderCannon
The EliteAbilities value of BGGY has been changed from CRUSHER to FIREPOWER,STRONGER
The Elite value of BIKE has been changed from HoverMissile to EliteBikeMissile
The EliteAbilities value of BIKE has been changed from VEIN_PROOF to FIREPOWER,STRONGER
The TooBigToFitUnderBridge value of ART2 has been changed from Unknown to true
The Elite value of ART2 has been changed from Unknown to Elite155mm
The EliteAbilities value of ART2 has been changed from SELF_HEAL to FIREPOWER,STRONGER
The Elite value of GAARTY has been changed from Unknown to Elite155mm
The EliteAbilities value of GAARTY has been changed from SELF_HEAL to FIREPOWER,STRONGER
The TooBigToFitUnderBridge value of TTNK has been changed from Unknown to true
The Armor value of TTNK has been changed from light to heavy
The Elite value of TTNK has been changed from 120mmx to Elite90mm
The EliteAbilities value of TTNK has been changed from SENSORS to FIREPOWER,STRONGER
The Elite value of GATICK has been changed from 120mmx to Elite90mm
The EliteAbilities value of GATICK has been changed from SENSORS to FIREPOWER,STRONGER
The Strength value of STNK has been changed from 180 to 230
The Armour value of STNK has been changed from Unknown to wood
The CloakingSpeed value of STNK has been changed from 5 to 3
The Turret value of STNK has been changed from no to Yes
The Elite value of STNK has been changed from Unknown to EliteDragon
The EliteAbilities value of STNK has been changed from EXPLODES to STRONGER,SELF_HEAL
The ThreatAvoidanceCoefficient value of WEED has been changed from .6 to 0.00
The Elite value of APACHE has been changed from Unknown to EliteHarpyClaw
The EliteAbilities value of APACHE has been changed from Unknown to FIREPOWER,SELF_HEAL
The Elite value of SCRIN has been changed from Unknown to EliteProton
The EliteAbilities value of SCRIN has been changed from RADAR_INVISIBLE to FIREPOWER,SELF_HEAL
The Cost value of DOGGIE has been changed from 100 to 330
The Elite value of DOGGIE has been changed from Unknown to EliteFiendShard
The EliteAbilities value of DOGGIE has been changed from Unknown to STRONGER,SELF_HEAL
The Cost value of VISC_LRG has been changed from 1 to 330
The Trainable value of VISC_LRG has been changed from Unknown to Yes
The Elite value of VISC_LRG has been changed from Unknown to EliteSlimeAttack
The EliteAbilities value of VISC_LRG has been changed from Unknown to STRONGER,SELF_HEAL
The Damage value of EliteFiendShard has been changed from Unknown to 42
The ROF value of EliteFiendShard has been changed from Unknown to 30
The Burst value of EliteFiendShard has been changed from Unknown to 3
The Range value of EliteFiendShard has been changed from Unknown to 6
The Projectile value of EliteFiendShard has been changed from Unknown to DogShard
The Speed value of EliteFiendShard has been changed from Unknown to 25
The Warhead value of EliteFiendShard has been changed from Unknown to Shard
The Report value of EliteFiendShard has been changed from Unknown to FIEND2
The Damage value of EliteSlimeAttack has been changed from Unknown to 120
The Range value of EliteSlimeAttack has been changed from Unknown to 1.56
The ROF value of EliteSlimeAttack has been changed from Unknown to 80
The Projectile value of EliteSlimeAttack has been changed from Unknown to Invisible
The Speed value of EliteSlimeAttack has been changed from Unknown to 25
The Warhead value of EliteSlimeAttack has been changed from Unknown to Slimer
The Report value of EliteSlimeAttack has been changed from Unknown to VICER1
The Burst value of Heal has been changed from Unknown to 2
The Range value of Heal has been changed from 2.83 to 4.5
The Damage value of Vulcan3 has been changed from 10 to 12
The Range value of Vulcan3 has been changed from 4 to 5
The Damage value of AssaultCannon has been changed from 40 to 31
The Burst value of AssaultCannon has been changed from Unknown to 2
The Damage value of EliteAssaultCannon has been changed from Unknown to 37
The Burst value of EliteAssaultCannon has been changed from Unknown to 2
The ROF value of EliteAssaultCannon has been changed from Unknown to 25
The Range value of EliteAssaultCannon has been changed from Unknown to 6
The Projectile value of EliteAssaultCannon has been changed from Unknown to Invisible
The Speed value of EliteAssaultCannon has been changed from Unknown to 100
The Warhead value of EliteAssaultCannon has been changed from Unknown to SA
The Report value of EliteAssaultCannon has been changed from Unknown to TSGUN4
The Damage value of Elite120mm has been changed from Unknown to 84
The ROF value of Elite120mm has been changed from Unknown to 80
The Range value of Elite120mm has been changed from Unknown to 8.1
The Projectile value of Elite120mm has been changed from Unknown to Invisible
The Speed value of Elite120mm has been changed from Unknown to 90
The Warhead value of Elite120mm has been changed from Unknown to AP
The Report value of Elite120mm has been changed from Unknown to 120MMF
The Anim value of Elite120mm has been changed from Unknown to GUNFIRE
The Bright value of Elite120mm has been changed from Unknown to yes
The Damage value of EliteHoverMissile has been changed from Unknown to 36
The ROF value of EliteHoverMissile has been changed from Unknown to 68
The Range value of EliteHoverMissile has been changed from Unknown to 9.6
The Burst value of EliteHoverMissile has been changed from Unknown to 2
The Projectile value of EliteHoverMissile has been changed from Unknown to AAHeatSeeker2
The Speed value of EliteHoverMissile has been changed from Unknown to 30
The Warhead value of EliteHoverMissile has been changed from Unknown to AP
The Report value of EliteHoverMissile has been changed from Unknown to HOVRMIS1
The MinimumRange value of EliteHoverMissile has been changed from Unknown to 2
The Damage value of EliteRaiderCannon has been changed from Unknown to 48
The Range value of EliteRaiderCannon has been changed from Unknown to 4.8
The Projectile value of EliteRaiderCannon has been changed from Unknown to Invisible
The Speed value of EliteRaiderCannon has been changed from Unknown to 100
The Warhead value of EliteRaiderCannon has been changed from Unknown to SA
The Report value of EliteRaiderCannon has been changed from Unknown to CHAINGN1
The Anim value of EliteRaiderCannon has been changed from Unknown to MGUN-N,MGUN-NE,MGUN-E,MGUN-SE,MGUN-S,MGUN-SW,MGUN-W,MGUN-NW
The Damage value of EliteBikeMissile has been changed from Unknown to 48
The ROF value of EliteBikeMissile has been changed from Unknown to 60
The Range value of EliteBikeMissile has been changed from Unknown to 6
The Projectile value of EliteBikeMissile has been changed from Unknown to HeatSeeker
The Speed value of EliteBikeMissile has been changed from Unknown to 30
The Report value of EliteBikeMissile has been changed from Unknown to MISL1
The Warhead value of EliteBikeMissile has been changed from Unknown to AP
The Damage value of Elite155mm has been changed from Unknown to 180
The ROF value of Elite155mm has been changed from Unknown to 110
The MinimumRange value of Elite155mm has been changed from Unknown to 5.00
The Projectile value of Elite155mm has been changed from Unknown to Ballistic
The Speed value of Elite155mm has been changed from Unknown to 10
The Warhead value of Elite155mm has been changed from Unknown to ARTYHE
The Range value of Elite155mm has been changed from Unknown to 21.60
The Report value of Elite155mm has been changed from Unknown to 120MMF
The Anim value of Elite155mm has been changed from Unknown to GUNFIRE
The Lobber value of Elite155mm has been changed from Unknown to yes
The Damage value of Elite90mm has been changed from Unknown to 43
The ROF value of Elite90mm has been changed from Unknown to 50
The Projectile value of Elite90mm has been changed from Unknown to Cannon
The Speed value of Elite90mm has been changed from Unknown to 40
The Warhead value of Elite90mm has been changed from Unknown to AP
The Range value of Elite90mm has been changed from Unknown to 8.1
The Report value of Elite90mm has been changed from Unknown to 120MMF
The Anim value of Elite90mm has been changed from Unknown to GUNFIRE
The Bright value of Elite90mm has been changed from Unknown to yes
The Damage value of EliteDragon has been changed from Unknown to 36
The ROF value of EliteDragon has been changed from Unknown to 50
The Burst value of EliteDragon has been changed from Unknown to 2
The Range value of EliteDragon has been changed from Unknown to 7.2
The Projectile value of EliteDragon has been changed from Unknown to AAHeatSeeker2
The Speed value of EliteDragon has been changed from Unknown to 25
The Warhead value of EliteDragon has been changed from Unknown to AP
The Report value of EliteDragon has been changed from Unknown to MISL1
The Damage value of EliteHarpyClaw has been changed from Unknown to 72
The ROF value of EliteHarpyClaw has been changed from Unknown to 36
The Range value of EliteHarpyClaw has been changed from Unknown to 5
The Projectile value of EliteHarpyClaw has been changed from Unknown to Invisible2
The Speed value of EliteHarpyClaw has been changed from Unknown to 100
The Warhead value of EliteHarpyClaw has been changed from Unknown to SA
The Report value of EliteHarpyClaw has been changed from Unknown to CYGUN1
The Damage value of EliteProton has been changed from Unknown to 24
The ROF value of EliteProton has been changed from Unknown to 3
The Range value of EliteProton has been changed from Unknown to 5
The Projectile value of EliteProton has been changed from Unknown to ProtonTorpedo
The Speed value of EliteProton has been changed from Unknown to 30
The Warhead value of EliteProton has been changed from Unknown to AP
The Report value of EliteProton has been changed from Unknown to scrin5b
The Speed value of CyCannon has been changed from 70 to 35
The Damage value of EliteCyCannon has been changed from Unknown to 180
The ROF value of EliteCyCannon has been changed from Unknown to 50
The Range value of EliteCyCannon has been changed from Unknown to 8.4
The Projectile value of EliteCyCannon has been changed from Unknown to ProtonBlast
The Speed value of EliteCyCannon has been changed from Unknown to 35
The Warhead value of EliteCyCannon has been changed from Unknown to PlasmaWH
The Report value of EliteCyCannon has been changed from Unknown to scrin5b
The Damage value of EliteLtRail has been changed from Unknown to 0
The AmbientDamage value of EliteLtRail has been changed from Unknown to 180
The ROF value of EliteLtRail has been changed from Unknown to 60
The Range value of EliteLtRail has been changed from Unknown to 7.2
The Projectile value of EliteLtRail has been changed from Unknown to Invisible
The Speed value of EliteLtRail has been changed from Unknown to 100
The Warhead value of EliteLtRail has been changed from Unknown to RailShot2
The Anim value of EliteLtRail has been changed from Unknown to GUNFIRE
The IsRailgun value of EliteLtRail has been changed from Unknown to true
The AttachedParticleSystem value of EliteLtRail has been changed from Unknown to SmallRailgunSys
The Report value of EliteLtRail has been changed from Unknown to BIGGGUN1
The Damage value of EliteHellfire has been changed from Unknown to 36
The ROF value of EliteHellfire has been changed from Unknown to 50
The Range value of EliteHellfire has been changed from Unknown to 6
The Projectile value of EliteHellfire has been changed from Unknown to AAHeatSeeker2
The Speed value of EliteHellfire has been changed from Unknown to 30
The Warhead value of EliteHellfire has been changed from Unknown to ORCAAP
The Report value of EliteHellfire has been changed from Unknown to ORCAMIS1
The Burst value of EliteHellfire has been changed from Unknown to 2
The Damage value of EliteBomb has been changed from Unknown to 192
The ROF value of EliteBomb has been changed from Unknown to 10
The Range value of EliteBomb has been changed from Unknown to 5
The Projectile value of EliteBomb has been changed from Unknown to Cannon2
The Speed value of EliteBomb has been changed from Unknown to 0
The Warhead value of EliteBomb has been changed from Unknown to ORCAHE
The Floater value of EliteBomb has been changed from Unknown to yes
The AmbientDamage value of EliteMechRailgun has been changed from Unknown to 300
The Damage value of EliteMechRailgun has been changed from Unknown to 0
The ROF value of EliteMechRailgun has been changed from Unknown to 60
The Range value of EliteMechRailgun has been changed from Unknown to 9.6
The Projectile value of EliteMechRailgun has been changed from Unknown to Invisible
The Speed value of EliteMechRailgun has been changed from Unknown to 100
The Warhead value of EliteMechRailgun has been changed from Unknown to RailShot
The Report value of EliteMechRailgun has been changed from Unknown to RAILUSE5
The Anim value of EliteMechRailgun has been changed from Unknown to GUNFIRE
The IsRailgun value of EliteMechRailgun has been changed from Unknown to true
The AttachedParticleSystem value of EliteMechRailgun has been changed from Unknown to LargeRailgunSys
The Proximity value of ProtonBlast has been changed from yes to no
The Ranged value of ProtonBlast has been changed from yes to no
The Acceleration value of ProtonBlast has been changed from Unknown to 12
The Verses value of ORCAHE has been changed from 200%,90%,75%,32%,100% to 200%,90%,75%,32%,32%
The Trainable value of SONIC has been changed from Unknown to no

Edited July 5, 2020 by amokk

[Sol]

I have asked for patch notes for changes CNCNET has made, not vet.

Also that list shows why Vet and balance patch needs to be split. Way too hard to find the relevant information.

[Phenomena]

Christ...watching you guys bicker back and forth about things that really dont matter or address the issue.

Ignore Vet or non vet maps, the issue is ladder activity. Simple.

And the reality is, only a very small handful will even think about playing the ladder, regardless of what maps are on it.

Heres an idea, put ONLY mod maps on the ladder for a month. Not a single WW style map. See if theres a dramatic increase of people playing ladder (aim to attract the 95% of people on cncnet who are modders)

Youll get your answer.

Im willing to bet you wont see any notable difference.

You guys are just wasting your time at annoying eachother and not understanding that maybe the vast majority of players simply arnt interested in the ladder.

[Humble]

https://github.com/HumbleTS/Balance-Veteran-Patch/wiki/Balance-Veteran-Summary

[Sol]

4 hours ago, Humble said:

https://github.com/HumbleTS/Balance-Veteran-Patch/wiki/Balance-Veteran-Summary

I know. I have seen it, read it and linked it to other people more than once. The misinformation about vet still persists.

[Humble]

A few bad apples spread lies on purpose, a few are just very ignorant, and a few are too lazy to read. 

[Hungry Mike]

@Humble Very good and thoughtful changes, as we all said all the time.

I like how you make Obelisks heavier, so they cant get bombed away that easily. But i dont like how Obelisks now shoot faster, but weaker. I always liked their ability to really rape 1 diss or 3-4 tits. I can live with it tho!

While you made Wolves better, Buggies, who were better than Wolves before, are now slightly worse. Buggies are good for scouting tho. Maybe make them a bit stronger too; its not needed tho, considering the fact, that you can get a one star Buggie   

Can you make a star Arnold to be a "flying Arnold" like Nme's Arnolds? And Star Stealth Tanks to fire chemical missiles or have really big armor? Haha, would be crazy, i know; but fun!

One question: With the laser wall: Is it possible to fix it so you can build it between an enemy unit? Would be nice, because you could kill even a Mammy with activate/deactivate, if the Mammy user doesnt move... (would be too powerful then i guess xD)

After all: Very nice job! No change is unfair or crazy, but just a reaction to programming mistakes/bugs.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Hungry Mike

[Weaponx]

Amok you posted that useless spawn. Please remove that so people can focus on the tread? 

[1337]

7 hours ago, Hungry Mike said:

@Humble Very good and thoughtful changes, as we all said all the time.

I like how you make Obelisks heavier, so they cant get bombed away that easily. But i dont like how Obelisks now shoot faster, but weaker. I always liked their ability to really rape 1 diss or 3-4 tits. I can live with it tho!

While you made Wolves better, Buggies, who were better than Wolves before, are now slightly worse. Buggies are good for scouting tho. Maybe make them a bit stronger too; its not needed tho, considering the fact, that you can get a one star Buggie   

Can you make a star Arnold to be a "flying Arnold" like Nme's Arnolds? And Star Stealth Tanks to fire chemical missiles or have really big armor? Haha, would be crazy, i know; but fun!

One question: With the laser wall: Is it possible to fix it so you can build it between an enemy unit? Would be nice, because you could kill even a Mammy with activate/deactivate, if the Mammy user doesnt move... (would be too powerful then i guess xD)

After all: Very nice job! No change is unfair or crazy, but just a reaction to programming mistakes/bugs.

 

 

This is a clear indication why there needs to be a toggle switch for VET patch on Tiberian Sun. If some people think it's cool and they want to play it, then by all means go for it. (I believe its setup this way for CNC Tiberian Dawn). But leave the old TS game we all grew up and love alone. 

As for the ladder activity - if you want more games? Allow all maps in so the majority of TS players can play (modders). Let the players choose if they want to test their skills on the map that is set.

[Humble]

The problems with vanilla Obelisks are:

1. A single bomber can kill it

2. Expensive / high power consumption

(These make it not work using unless trolling newbs)

The only way to fix these issues, is to:

1. Increase armor type against bombers (which results in a decrease against tanks).

2. Increase firepower rate to make it some-what worth the high cost/power consumption/lowered armor against tanks.

Obelisk is still barely worth making, unless you have superb timing and use them the way Mola tries to, and even then it is questionable if they are worth the effort or not.

The reason Buggy has no buffs is because the unit is fine how it is.  It is great at scouting, and buffing it any more would make it OP, and make it able to snipe infantry in the enemy base.  Wolverines on the other hand are absolute garbage all around, and are not a scouting unit, so they were buffed just enough to make them worth their own value against infantry (but not OP in any regard).

Laser wall can now be places further away from base structures and connects at a wider range, which is supposed to make them a tiny bit more usable, however they are still a pain to use at 60 FPS, and still have very limited use.

Something a lot of people fail to recognize (except Mola, who I used it on many times), is that in Vet you can now place pavement further away from building structures, which means you can place it between your base and tib to speed up harvs a little bit, but where this really comes in handy, is placing it under subs (like CC) when they pop up to snipe things, and strand them there.

The people that complain about Cyborgs (even after they have been nerfed twice), simply do not account that one cyborg is equal to 5.5 infantry cost wise, and see 5 cyborgs and imagine 5 light infantry.  If you make 6500$ worth of light inf, and 5,500$ worth of borgs +one harvester, the light inf will win, unless the person controlling the light inf is absolutely horrible with infantry, in which they would loose their inf battle regardless.

All the units that have no buffs, simply don't need them.  They are good how they are.  Medics for example got a buff, because no one in their right mind would actually use them in vanilla, unless trolling total newbs.

And, no, as has been stated hundreds of times before, no units have any 'nerfs', GDI units are just as strong as they are in vanilla.  The people telling you that are trolling you, or just really stupid.

People that hate on vet should be forced to always be TR on Terraces, and always be Nod.

@Sol, there is no point in separating Vet from Balance, from new maps, from map adjustments, because the same trolls that hate all the quality of life/glitch patches Xme/Cncnet did are the same trolls that hate vet, are the same trolls that hate balance, are the same trolls that hate new maps, are the same trolls that hate maps like pit or plat, or tiers of sorrow (which are mirrored maps) actually being balanced.  Let the trolls be trolls and live in a cave with each other.

@Weaponx, it is not that WW did not plan to balance/adjust maps, they have stated that it was their intention, it is simply that the people working on the maps required a large amount of time to make the maps and were not afforded the time to balance them out, other than 'eying' them.  Many WW maps are mirrored, like FF for example is 'double-mirrored', TM and BM for example share qualities, and BM and BR share other qualities.  Maps like Terraces were left unfinished, and the game was initially meant to be released with 4 types of tib, not 2, which is why maps like Terraces and FF have 'fake blue' in some spots, that was initially meant to be one of the other types of blue tib.  TR on terrace is bad enough, throw fake blue tib in and its even worse, especially in 1v1.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Humble

[c0rpsmakr]

"As for winning the pc corpsmakr, you won by 6 points vs me, and i  waited 1½ hour for a game and didnt get one. (unlucky on final day)

Also you farmed some newb 10x in row for pts, where i actually played different players, i would  never play 1 rubish player 3min games just for points.

Then again thats the difference between me and you."

 

Seriously Mola, THAT is what you're making my post to be about? I've always played whoever is on the ladder (without switching my logs in attempts to save my points on higher ranking ones). That's the difference between me and you (which this topic was in no way even about, nor was my response, but you HAD to turn this into some stupid ego trip as usual."

 

 

Back on topic: Being that it seems as though there won't be a change of opinion between those who don't like the vet maps and those who do, why not have half standard/half vet/add in a mixture of non-insane mods as well? If the goal is activity on the ladder, this would appeal to everyone, especially since rejections would be able to take out many of the maps people wouldn't want to play. I suggested this months ago to one of the admins, but they shot down the idea. It may be a good time to reconsider?

Edited July 4, 2020 by c0rpsmakr

[Tibermach]

activity is the main thing... up until the vet changes there wasn't even "prizes" - activity is key here, allow OG TS/FS allow the all the other "top mods" too, let every one who wants to play play on their preferred maps... lets get the games going again...

[Avesta]

No matter how many times you suggest it, unfair maps aren’t going to be added to competition systems. 

You have to freedom to set unfair/excuses maps in your private games. Please stop trying to force everyone to play unfair/unbalanced maps in competition. 

Whether you like it or not you will be forced to play on a level/fair/balanced environment in competition. If you don’t like it then keep sitting out with your full diaper.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Avesta

[Hungry Mike]

14 hours ago, Humble said:

Obelisk is still barely worth making, unless you have superb timing and use them the way Mola tries to, and even then it is questionable if they are worth the effort or not.

Yeah, i get your reasoning, its one of two ways to go with them. The new fire rate is somewhat near to the Obelisk in TD... which i should like. I dont think they are useless btw, especially in 4vs4s on lets say FF. Build 2 of them and you have silence in your far away base and can harass people all you want .

The changes are really good and just. The tank bug fix for its own makes TS 2x more playable.

10 hours ago, c0rpsmakr said:

If the goal is activity on the ladder, this would appeal to everyone, especially since rejections would be able to take out many of the maps people wouldn't want to play.

Thats exactly the point why the dont want to do it i guess. Because Vanila Pharisees would just only play Vanilla, thus making it an unfair competition to guys like Mola, who play the fair Anti-Bug Vet maps.

[amokk]

On 7/4/2020 at 6:20 AM, Weaponx said:

Amok you posted that useless spawn. Please remove that so people can focus on the tread? 

I directly addressed the original post.  so, no.

 

dkeeton asked what needs to be done to get activity up, 

Avesta  asked if I thought they would compromise and play a vet modded version of the maps we play.  (fewer, avesta, fewer....imho)

I suggested adding some of the maps the rest of us play >> unchanged <<  (without all those changes)

might help some people to consider playing the tournament.

 

are you guys saying changing the obelisks will -----

dkeeton   June was a bad month for the Tiberian Sun ladder.

                  What needs to be done to get activity up?

----help get activity up?

 

What about lobby announcements?

Edited July 5, 2020 by amokk

[Weaponx]

On 7/5/2020 at 10:47 PM, amokk said:

I directly addressed the original post.  so, no.

 

dkeeton asked what needs to be done to get activity up, 

Avesta  asked if I thought they would compromise and play a vet modded version of the maps we play.  (fewer, avesta, fewer....imho)

I suggested adding some of the maps the rest of us play >> unchanged <<  (without all those changes)

might help some people to consider playing the tournament.

 

are you guys saying changing the obelisks will -----

dkeeton   June was a bad month for the Tiberian Sun ladder.

                  What needs to be done to get activity up?

----help get activity up?

 

What about lobby announcements?

Your an idiot, no one asked for vet notes. They asked for Patch notes. 

Some admin remove his post, its useless and annoying to scroll true, and has nothing to do with the question asked on thread.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Weaponx

[amokk]

9 hours ago, Weaponx said:

Your an idiot, no one asked for vet notes. They asked for Patch notes. 

Some admin remove his post, its useless and annoying to scroll true, and has nothing to do with the question asked on thread.

 

 

I was not fulfilling a request for patch notes.

Avesta asked if some might compromise and play a vet balanced map we play on the ladder

It was in support of my assertion that if you vet balance mod a map we play for the tournament it is no longer the one we are used to, and would not increase tournament participation as much as if it were unaltered.

We know vet balance mod is the way you like, can  >> you  <<  compromise and add the ones most of the player base likes? 

That just might increase participation in the tournament.

now, please explain how the discussion of vet balance changes about obelisks and units stats applies to the original post!

 

dkeeton   June was a bad month for the Tiberian Sun ladder.

                  What needs to be done to get activity up?

 

they are useless and annoying to scroll through.

Edited July 6, 2020 by amokk

[Weaponx]

You do not need to post vet patch notes, you can post a link where people can go and read.

I play vet and none-vet without issues, i just prefer vet since its a fair hot fix which balance the game more.

 

That said, ladder activity have always been low but when vet was introduced, it went high. Look at the past 12 months and before and after vet, it speaks for it self.

The ladder is fine as it is, no need to change it.