"Useless" units

[Sol]

They are very useful against mass infantry because of their area of effect damage. Also you can use them defensively against engineer attacks and they do good damage against buildings.

[X3M]

That is, IF they get a chance to.

I always consider every strategy a possibility based on the behaviour of your opponent.

 

Sure they are good against structures, if they aren't killed by defensive structures that are standing around.

Sure they are good against infantry, if they line up for you.

 

Practically speaking, this tank alone is rather useless. Sorry to say that, but it is true

Infantry is rare when every one has the best tanks. And each base is well fortified.

But as said before, the reaper is a good addition. It stops infantry in their tracks, then the flame tank can do its job better.

 

 

[en3rgy52]

The Nod bike is useful in multiplayer when somone lands a disruptor in your base with the intention of destroying a base structure like a refinery or war factory etc. They should be used in conjunction with a few infantry and an engineer to save the structure. The advantage comes from the fact that they can be moved around your base quickly to get to the disruptor before it lands to give the maxiumum amount of time to do damage and the fact that they are cheap and can be produced quickly i.e. you see it in your enemies base and it's ready to go or you see it late and it's already halfway across the map. They are good in an emergency.

[X3M]

That is a good point. But would having some Obelisks of Light not give the same result?

I know that having those costs energy.

But then again, having plenty of SAM's, stops this dropdown as well. And the MK2 dropdown is also stopped. For all the air, your only choice is mass SAM's.

And if they need to move in from afar, then you have your banchee's to protect you in early advantage. They are 2 times faster and don't get counter damage.

 

The micro of the Bike is to slow for saving the targeted one from dying. Thus a lucky Disruptor manages to kill 2. This is almost 100% efficiency.

 

If they ignore your bikes however, then I agree that they are the best choice.

 

PS. What if they drop multiple disruptores at several points in your base? The so called chaos attack?

[en3rgy52]

You would be surprised at how few units some of the better players use to defend against multiple disruptor attacks. As Nod it is usually an idea to have a number of infantry and sams so that you are able to prevent the disruptor from landing, i.e. it can't land on top of units or a piece of wall placed just before the disruptor is about to land (underneath its landing point which requires good anticipation). When defending you will be faced with the decision of what buildings to save etc. If you are attacked by multiple disruptors dropped from the air you may have to accept that you will have to sell one building whilst saving the other. On Obelisks, they are expensive and rarely if ever used in high end multiplayer. As an attacker, if I see one, im either going to bomb it, not land my disruptor within range of it or bomb your power so that its out of action.

[VamPyroX]

It's more complicated than a simple rock/paper/scissors game.

 

Instead of 3 variables where only one can beat the other, there's actually a lot of varibles.

 

It's just a matter of knowing which is good for what.

 

[X3M]

Haha, well, NOD obvious has the mass rocket soldier choice. Infantry every where, good against disruptors, also good against the "slower" air units.

Does not take away mass bombers, for that you still need SAM's.

 

I love RPS discussions. The number of RPS that is out there and the combinations of it is astonishing. Discussing it always shows the unhappyness of some players. It also shows which units are very hard to learn too.

 

For me it is still finding out what purpose the MRLS has, I guess guarding all waters. (ION Storm!)

How would the 2 of you use the MRLS?

[en3rgy52]

MLRS's used with Q (the command to shoot and move) can be devastating.

[X3M]

Q is possible in tiberian sun as well? I thought it was only in RA.

 

Practise time

[MrFrodo]

Using MRLS as a primary attack, yo gotta use element of surprise.  Also RPG n Obselisk owns mrls. And infantry if within range. Good players almost always can counter easily

[MrFrodo]

@energy I have seen Nods the v good ones sing bikes to make disr miss a spot to land, have to be intuitive. To others who dont know, you can place a silo qickly where the disr is about to land, or a comp tower or a laser w/e

[Micro]

Q is possible in tiberian sun as well? I thought it was only in RA.

 

Practise time

U should watch or play some high level terrace games to see how ppl use different units that u would never think could work as they have mastered the game. I've seen pros use one or two marls combined with a few tits to kill a mammoth as they use e mrLos to shoot ththe carry and then the tits finish the mm. The mammoth is devastating in terrace games as pros will use it to stop small rushes of Titans and also pick off your harvesters to draw your money. Also hovers are good in ur base to help early bomber attacks where enemy is trying to take out SAMs and pads to slow u

[Mole40k]

Personally I'd say that is a unit is only good for 'humiliating' an opponent, then something about it is not working, as the only reason it is 'humiliating' is because it is not effective in normal gameplay.

 

If we're talking about balance, then yes, the game is massively imbalanced compared to modern e-sports RTS games. I also think some balance issues are more obvious than others, and could be fixed, but the problem is everyone will have an opinion, so I would in no way advocate any change to the game for that reason.

 

Off the top of my head:

1. Fix disc man splash damage on explosions.

2. Rocket men are absolutely useless against infantry. Why? They are firing a bazooka ffs. Either improve damage vs infs, or improve armour.

3. Flamers could do with being a bit less vulnerable to inf, and a bit more vulnerable to vehicles.

4. Tik tanks need to be more effective in deployed mode to make them more viable as base defence. Titans are too good imo.

5. Banshee damage to small buildings.

6. Wolverines and Attack Buggies either need better anti-inf, or to be cheaper.

7. Stealth tanks definitely need to be buffed.

8. Scrap build limit on hijackers!

[X3M]

1. Agreed.

2. No. Since it is a game. The reason why rockets do so less damage against infantry in almost any RTS is because in real life. They do overkill. 1 Rocket kills 1 soldier (or several with splash). This same rocket would also kill 1 tank. Since we are playing a game, and the simulation is that 1 rocket is overkill against infantry: each unit has health points. Let's say x10, then the soldier gets 1 damage each time, while a tank might get 5 damage (50 health instead of 10 health)

3. Flame Tanks are indeed a bit overpowered against infantry, the splash is overpowered. Not the weapon. 6 Rifle Infantry do have a good chance in beating 1 flame tank (TS version). But this is their purpose. But you are right if we are talking about damage against vehicles. Against light vehicles (that would run away anyway) the damage could have like +50%? However, EA-games decided that their flame units are good against structures. If you want flame based weapons that are good against light vehicles. Go play Starcraft or Warzone2100 or any other game that has this featured.

4. Perhaps Titans are a bit OP?

5. I find any air OP in TS.

6. Buggy 300 and Wolverine 400?

7. Like in C&C3? There they are one of the coolest weaponry. That includes the flame tank as well.

8. They are too expensive as well! 1850! FFS.

 

Have you played C&C3? Because in that game, most units are balanced. Even the Recon Bike has a much better function in harvester/air raping.

[Mole40k]

I think you've just completely misunderstood most of my points.

 

2. Your point makes no sense. Are you and I talking about the same game? Rocket infantry in TS are pretty much useless against infantry. My point is that really they shouldn't be, and for their cost, they need to be a bit less 'squishy'.

3. I said Flame tanks are VULNERABLE to infantry.

4. They are, but equally, tik tanks are arguably a bit underpowered when deployed. Tits have the advantage of move and fire, tiks have the advantage of deploy, but this isn't much of an advantage.

5. Your response doesn't address my point, and makes no sense. Please explain.

 

The point here I think is that different people have different views of what it means to 'balance' a game. It doesn't mean to make every army the same, but to make every unit viable, and reduce the amount of exploits in game. Personally I would question if 1 shot diss was even an intention of the developers.

[X3M]

2. No, this is true what I said. I discussed it with other game designers. Perhaps you find them to weak. But they are supposed to be weak against infantry. Or else you have an unit that is "OP". Westwood/EA games decided, infantry is their weak point. But have you played all the other C&C games? In C&C Dawn they are even weaker where they only have 25 health instead of 50. Yet they do have a good impact on vehicles. Thus, if you think they should do more damage against vehicles, then I agree.

3. Grammar issue. But yes, I too have declared this somewhere on the forum. 6 Rifle infantry manage to kill 1 flame tank in TS when placed properly. Not an issue in Dawn or C&C3.

5. Page 3 of this topic.

[Mole40k]

Point 2 would be acceptable if discmen weren't effective against inf AND vehicles / buildings, and if rockets were slightly better at their job -- either cheaper or better armour. Plus, rocket men die way too easily to air in my opinion. Just because 'it's like that in other cnc games' doesn't make it right. Neither does just repeating your point until I agree with you!

[X3M]

Point 2 would be acceptable if discmen weren't effective against inf AND vehicles / buildings,

I assume you mean that only one of the two should be their target?

They can't target air, like rocket soldiers do.

 

 

and if rockets were slightly better at their job -- either cheaper or better armour. Plus, rocket men die way too easily to air in my opinion.

Thus more damage, which I think should be applied to any rocket in TS.

 

Just because 'it's like that in other cnc games' doesn't make it right. Neither does just repeating your point until I agree with you!

It isn't my point.

It is an all known fact.

This fact doesn't change. No matter how much you disagree with.

 

I have explained only one time why they have choosen the rocket to be weak against infantry. I have also explained how they came to that decision. So I never repeated myself.

[BlueSun]

useless units?.. lmao all units have their uses..

JJ's are useful for killing infantry with no repercussions if infantry is the bulk of enemy forces also light vehicles.. plus they are useful for harvy harassment. Also Ive used mass amounts also to take down banshees IT IS POSSIBLE NO JOKE.

Also pavement is used not only to block subterrain units but also to prevent terrain deformation due to ion cannons..multi missiles...artillery.. etc..

Limpet mines are super useful early in the game to do 2 things.. find enemies bases and slow down resource gathering.. they also add weight to them causing them to crack/break ice.

Wolverines are great scouts but also excellent anti infantry and great for harassing harvys

 

[X3M]

1 hour ago, BlueSun said:

Limpet mines are super useful early in the game to do 2 things.. find enemies bases and slow down resource gathering.. they also add weight to them causing them to crack/break ice.
 

That is a brilliant answer.
I never knew that they add more weight to units. But wouldn't that be a relative overpriced solution to enemy units to be dealt with?

 

[ore_truck]

3 hours ago, BlueSun said:

useless units?.. lmao all units have their uses..

Title should be underused units instead of useless.

[X3M]

Well, the title says "useless" units not useless units

I might be wrong though; that the " " has a different function in other countries.

[Tibermach]

When you loose your barrack and mcv have a wf and need anti infantry quick... Then wolves and buggies may be employed...?  If you vs disc men - tits alone might not be enough add in your anti infantry gunner and you can pop them quicker..??  

 

Verdict-mostly useless but do have their times. 

 

Also low tech games.    

[IntoTheRain]

Is there a serious discussion about opening up some of the more useless units?  I see a lot of 'all units are useful' silliness in this thread.

There is a legitimate argument that nearly half the units in the game need some sort of help. 

The standout units in the game:
- Titans
- Disrupters
- Mammoth MkII

- Bombers
- Carryall

- Cyborg Commando
- Artillery
- Underground APC
- Banshee

Basically everything else is either barely ok, fringe, or just never sees the light of day.

They played it way too safe with the harvester hunters, there are too many anti infantry units that are all garbage, and the early aircraft are thoroughly unimpressive.  Most of the defenses lack the range, or damage to be useful. (and the component system is pointless)

My Ideas:
There are a few areas of the game I would like to see open up more.  Right now, the game focuses primarily on either base harass from UAPCs or Carryalls, Air campaigns with Bombers/Banshees, or frontal attacks as a last resort. (and some infantry rushes mixed in for good measure) I'd like to see harvester harass become a more viable way to attack the game, as well as trying to straight overpowering your opponent become more viable. (especially for Nod)


Medics:
* Cost reduced from $600, 7s to $450, 5s
* Heal cast range increased by 1 cell

The unit is a good idea, but its just too expensive and its heal range isn't long enough to justify investing in them over just having more infantry.  I propose the cost be reduced from $600, 7s to $450, 5s.  Additionally, I propose its heal range be increased by 1 cell.


Jump Infantry:
* Unit is now permanently flying

RA2 shows the way here.  The Rocketeer is everything the Jump Infantry wanted to be.  It should to be permanently airborne with all the advantages and disadvantages that entails.  This would open the unit up as a GDI midgame harasser and scout, and could be a potent unit when combined with the MLRS and/or Orca.


Wolverine:
* Range increased from 5 to 6
* Rate of Fire increased from 50 to 30
* Hit points increased from 175 to 200
* Move speed decreased from 7 to 6

The Wolverine and the Buggy are probably the most maligned units in the game.  Both struggle to see play when each side already has solid anti infantry options available that are better against other targets.  For the Wolverine to actually compete with the crushing power of APCs and Titans, the Wolverine needs to absolutely mulch infantry from range.  A healthy buff to its RoF, Range, and staying power is required for this unit to see the light of day, while nerfing its movespeed keeps it more in line with the other GDI mainstays.


MLRS:
* Movespeed increased from 7 to 9

The MLRS has always been an awkward mix of a harasser and artillery unit that excels at neither.  With the addition of the Juggernaut, its makes more sense to push the units harass/anti harass role harder.  By making it GDI's fastest unit, its role becomes more clearly defined.  With its impressive range, the unit becomes more effective at darting in and out of bases to harass buildings and harvesters.  With its newfound speed, It also makes a good counter to Bikes or Air Harrass.  Its possible the unit may need an HP or Armor nerf with its newfound speed, but I would like to see the unit in action before making such a change to this under used unit.


Orca:
* Orca clip size decreased from 12 to 8
* Missile damage increased from 30 to 60
* Orca missile damage vs Wood increased from 65% to 80%
* Orca reload time reduced from 22s to 15s (1.875s per missile)
* Orca movespeed reduced from 20 to 14

A badly underused aircraft, the TS version of the Orca is probably the weakest iteration in any CnC.  Supposedly a GDI mainstay, the Orca doesn't do enough damage, takes too long to unload its missiles, and spends too much time reloading.  The miss mechanics don't help either.  With the proposed changes, A pair of Orcas could kill a Titan, while a single Orca could kill a Tick Tank or Artillery.  While three Orcas would still be needed to kill a harvester.  The unit also becomes dangerous against light buildings, with 4 Orcas killing a Power Plant or Barracks that isn't being repaired.  These changes help bring what is supposed to be a core unit into the light, and pave the way to nerf Orca Bombers vs Vehicles.


Cyborgs:
* Damage increased from 10 to 15 (clip size is 4 I believe, so from 40 to 60 per volley)
* RoF increased from 30 to 25
* HP reduced from 300 to 250

Outside of the Buggy/Wolverine, the Cyborg is among the least used and weakest units currently in the game.  These proposed changes turn the Cyborg into the NOD answer to the Wolverine.  While it remains slower, more expensive, and has less range, its tougher. doesn't take up your WF, heals in Tiberium, and now brings loads of DPS.  A Health reduction helps keep the unit manageable and means basic Rifles will remain viable in certain situations after your Radar comes down.


Buggy:
* Weapon damage increased from 40 to 45
* Weapon range increased from 4 to 6
* Buggy weapon can now shoot air. 

Unlike the Wolverine, I don't think its worth trying to make the Buggy a strong anti infantry unit.  Nod already has a ton of strong anti infantry units at T1 in the forms of Devil's Tongues, Artillery, and (upgraded) Cyborgs.  What they don't have is quality, mobile anti air to support Rocket Troopers, and a unit that can help hold the line against GDI's superior infantry until the T1 units come online.  With its longer range and higher damage, the Buggy can now kite out shorter range units as well as more effectively burst down enemy aircraft.  Along with its superior scouting capability, the Buggy carves out its own niche in Nod.


Attack Bike:
* Range increased from 5 to 6
* Rate of Fire decreased from 60 to 90
* Damage increased from 40 to 60
* 0.15s pre-attack delay added to weapon

Some small changes to make the unit more viable.  The Bike itself actually isn't that far from playable, and a few tweaks here and there should help define its role as a harasser.  By trading 50% of its RoF for a 50% damage buff, the unit becomes more effective at darting in and out, and increasing its overall burst damage.  This makes it a more effective raider and a very dangerous Harvester hunter.  The extra range lets good players work the range, but the pre-attack delay will give a wary opponent time to close and retaliate.  It may be possible to cut some of the units HP for even more range or damage, but I would like to start with smaller changes and see how the unit preforms first.


Tick Tank:
* Cost changed from $800/9s to $700/8s 
* Armor type changed from light / concrete to heavy / heavy.

Nod is traditionally  thought of as the harasser faction, and while it is supposed to be weaker at frontline play than GDI, it is perhaps too weak in its current state.  A large part of that comes from the Tick Tank, which relies on an awkward ability to make up for its damage and health shortcomings.  By modifying its armor type to be more reliable, as well as a cost reduction to make it more massable, I believe Nod should be able to hit harder on the frontlines without overstepping onto GDI's turf.


Devil's Tongue:
* Weapon now shoots through terrain.
* Armor type changed from Light to Heavy

The armor type change is basically what I'm most interested in here.  By changing from light to heavy, infantry will do dramatically less damage to Devil's Tongues, but most tanks and aircraft will do more.  


Stealth Tank:
* Health decreased from 180 to 150
* Range decreased from 6 to 5
* Stealth Tank clip sized increased from 1 to 3
* Stealth Tank clip cooldown 0.10s, reload time unchange

For anyone who doesn't really understand what this means, its basically saying the Stealth Tank will now fire 6 missiles in 3 sets of 2, nearly tripling its DPS, and giving it one of, if not the highest DPS to costs in the game.  In exchange for this monster buff, I'm taking some range to help diversify it from the Attack Bike as well as some HP to keep it an absolute glass cannon.  The unit will probably require a fair bit of babysitting to be effective, but the payout should be highly rewarding.


Harpy:
* Harpy clip size reduced from 24 to 12
* Harpy damage increased from 60 to 120
* Harpy Reload time reduced from 76s to 19s (4x faster or 1.58s per clip)

The Harpy is a pretty narrow craft.  While it packs a ton of ammo and potential damage, its preposterous reload time, and crazy time required over the target to unload it all, mean it really doesn't see much play.  By reducing both of these down to more sane levels, the aircraft has more of a chance to shine in the midgame as either an infantry counter or a base harasser.  There is a possibility of reducing the clip size from 12 to 11 and increasing the damage from 120 to 125, allowing the Harpy to 1 shot light infantry, which would make it a very deadly answer to infantry rushes.


There are more changes that could be made here, but I think its a good first start.  Some of the more overused units might be viable for a nerf after these changes. (like the aforementioned Bomber)  Additionally, defenses could probably use a pass, as well as some of the support powers.  Its possible the Cyborg Commando may not need to be quite so strong with Nod's arsenal opening up more.   All in all though, I think this is a good starting point.

Edited October 20, 2018 by IntoTheRain

[[CC] RaVaGe]

That's an impressive first post.