Is Allied vs Soviet Balanced?

[MapDesigner]

will it be balanced if desolators were deleted from the game?

[XXxPrePxX]

Likely not, the the opposite would occur where the allied player would be far too over powered and don't even get me started on soviet vs. yuri without the desolator.

 

The desolator is the most polar unit in the game, you take it out and the balance switches greatly the other way. You keep it in and the soviets are overpowered.

[FlyingMustache]

Yep, what prep said. Desos are borderline op, but it's the only aoe sovs have. And sovs desperately need aoe damage.

[Lucifer]

10 hours ago, XXxPrePxX said:

No -- I'm with you here in terms of Ra2 / YR allies.

I feel YR allies are weaker than in Ra2.

 The reason why YR players now think allieds are OP/or better than the Ra2 counterpart is because YR has nerfed into a glorified FFG 6-8 player game, where, indeed YR Allies are much stronger than Ra2 Allies. However, in 1on1 combat like quick match, YR allies suffer from getting easily owned by rushes. It's much harder for me to rush an allied player in general on Ra2 then it is on YR. The reason may have to do with the quickness, the focus on allied players getting para/rockies/grizz, etc. On YR the slowness allows for a more methodical push from the soviets in the early going. Perhaps there is more time for a soviet to rush on YR compared to Ra2 and this is a major problem for allieds on YR.

 

I'm afraid the rush factor is just the beginning of the alliedz problems. For me personally, rocketeers seem nowhere near as good in yr, and it's the reason I prefer using sov there. But you are all missing the root of the imbalance , where all of the allied problems stem from and are amplified by: the allied power problem. 

[[CC] RaVaGe]

Desolator can be balanced with the right coding, for example reducing its radiation damage to armoured units, giving anyone caught in it to micro away. 

The allied power plant is more expensive and builds slower due to that, which could be balanced by just increasing its build speed, which is possible on YR. The price would need to remain as it provides a bit more power (or certain allied structures take less power I'm not bothered to check rulesmd.ini at this time).

Also if automag were to be disabled (no attack move), it would make the game much more playable.

[FlyingMustache]

45 minutes ago, FReQuEnZy said:

Desolator can be balanced with the right coding, for example reducing its radiation damage to armoured units, giving anyone caught in it to micro away. 

The allied power plant is more expensive and builds slower due to that, which could be balanced by just increasing its build speed, which is possible on YR. The price would need to remain as it provides a bit more power (or certain allied structures take less power I'm not bothered to check rulesmd.ini at this time).

Also if automag were to be disabled (no attack move), it would make the game much more playable.

Funny thing is that I did those things in my mod. Except the radiation bit, but I was considering it.

[MapDesigner]

tbh this is absurd. I am sure there can be another way of balancing it after deleting this desolator. I have seen a mod in moddb says it balances stuff but I havent checked how exactly they did it. nonetheless, I think for example increasing radiation duration of libya bomb truck maybe can suffice and just delete that desolator.

 

I never seen a game is balanced about 1 single unit 

Edited September 15, 2017 by MapDesigner

[FlyingMustache]

1 hour ago, MapDesigner said:

tbh this is absurd. I am sure there can be another way of balancing it after deleting this desolator. I have seen a mod in moddb says it balances stuff but I havent checked how exactly they did it. nonetheless, I think for example increasing radiation duration of libya bomb truck maybe can suffice and just delete that desolator.

Nah, deleting the desolator would be very uncool. The desolator is badass. It just needs to be tuned down a little bit. Meanwhile, the other sov nations need a little buff. I've actually already made a series of maps where I've made some of these balances. https://forums.cncnet.org/topic/3201-mx-mod-maps/

[Lucifer]

4 hours ago, FlyingMustache said:

Funny thing is that I did those things in my mod. Except the radiation bit, but I was considering it.

The only mod needed to balance the game is making the sov and allied power plant have the same cost, build time, and power. 

[FlyingMustache]

27 minutes ago, Lucifer said:

The only mod needed to balance the game is making the sov and allied power plant have the same cost, build time, and power. 

I would disagree. Yuri is definitely a faction that needs changing. Plus what about Russia?

Edited September 15, 2017 by FlyingMustache

[scalpem]

5 hours ago, FlyingMustache said:

Funny thing is that I did those things in my mod. Except the radiation bit, but I was considering it.

not playing that trash "MX" mode, no thanks. i am gonna make my own  mod!!!!!!!

[FlyingMustache]

5 hours ago, scalpem said:

not playing that trash "MX" mode, no thanks. i am gonna make my own  mod!!!!!!!

https://youtu.be/5l3ipKcnYlQ

 

Your own mod with blackjack and hookers!

Edited September 15, 2017 by FlyingMustache
autocorrect

[ZAIN]

The irony is people who play with the most OP faction "Yuri" in yuris revenge talking about soviet being overpowered ? lol seriously nothing is over powered allied got 3 good factions while soviet got iraq only ,many people talking about deso being OP no one talks about spy and legionnaire in late game ?? it cost less then 2k for spies to get into the wf and bang there is no way for soviet to win unless the enemy is stupid / noob enough, and ever wonder 4 chrono legionnaire can take of the mcv within 3-5 sec yes soviet player can't do shit if his tanks and dogs are far away from mcv in that case he will lose his mcv or any structure 100% isn't it OP ?  allied players who complains about iraq being OP should start playing soviet  but when they try soviet they can't do shit with it . So stop whining and enjoy the game :3

[[CC] RaVaGe]

8 hours ago, FlyingMustache said:

Funny thing is that I did those things in my mod. Except the radiation bit, but I was considering it.

The problem with your mod is that it changes the gameplay too much when I tried it the first time I was completely alienated by how much you've changed.

The balancing should be done slowly, bit by bit, so it doesn't completely alter the core gameplay and the metagame. 

 

4 hours ago, Lucifer said:

The only mod needed to balance the game is making the sov and allied power plant have the same cost, build time, and power. 

Nope, but it's a start, having the powerplant the same cost and build time while also providing the same amount of power, would cause the allied player having to spam powerplants throughout the game, while soviets can just make 1 nuclear reactor at not even so late game.

 

1 hour ago, ZAIN said:

The irony is people who play with the most OP faction "Yuri" in yuris revenge talking about soviet being overpowered ? lol seriously nothing is over powered allied got 3 good factions while soviet got iraq only ,many people talking about deso being OP no one talks about spy and legionnaire in late game ?? it cost less then 2k for spies to get into the wf and bang there is no way for soviet to win unless the enemy is stupid / noob enough, and ever wonder 4 chrono legionnaire can take of the mcv within 3-5 sec yes soviet player can't do shit if his tanks and dogs are far away from mcv in that case he will lose his mcv or any structure 100% isn't it OP ?  allied players who complains about iraq being OP should start playing soviet  but when they try soviet they can't do shit with it . So stop whining and enjoy the game :3

All of what you said shows that you don't really know what you're talking about.

Sure the factions are not great, however talking about the other points.

The spy and the legionnaire can easily be countered by making some dogs and leaving them littered around your base, even a simple sentry gun ready in your tab can be placed next to the structure that's about to be spied and with a simple swift click you can target the spy and kill it. Also, you can use a terror drone to kill the spy's transport quite easily if you're paying attention. 

Keep some units in your base for defence and the legionnaires can't touch you, if your tanks and dogs are away from your base and you leave it defenceless then it's your own fault.

I used to play sovs way before allied and I can easily say that being good with sovs is a laughing matter, all you need to do is pay attention and be fast. Rhinos & flak tracks is all you really need if you're good. 

Allied players need to be twice as fast as Soviets and micromanage the whole army, you've clearly never played against any 'real' top players.

 

[ZAIN]

i

6 minutes ago, FReQuEnZy said:

The problem with your mod is that it changes the gameplay too much when I tried it the first time I was completely alienated by how much you've changed.

The balancing should be done slowly, bit by bit, so it doesn't completely alter the core gameplay and the metagame. 

 

Nope, but it's a start, having the powerplant the same cost and build time while also providing the same amount of power, would cause the allied player having to spam powerplants throughout the game, while soviets can just make 1 nuclear reactor at not even so late game.

 

All of what you said shows that you don't really know what you're talking about.

Sure the factions are not great, however talking about the other points.

The spy and the legionnaire can easily be countered by making some dogs and leaving them littered around your base, even a simple sentry gun ready in your tab can be placed next to the structure that's about to be spied and with a simple swift click you can target the spy and kill it. Also, you can use a terror drone to kill the spy's transport quite easily if you're paying attention. 

Keep some units in your base for defence and the legionnaires can't touch you, if your tanks and dogs are away from your base and you leave it defenceless then it's your own fault.

I used to play sovs way before allied and I can easily say that being good with sovs is a laughing matter, all you need to do is pay attention and be fast. Rhinos & flak tracks is all you really need if you're good. 

Allied players need to be twice as fast as Soviets and micromanage the whole army, you've clearly never played against any 'real' top players.

 

Oh i don't need to learn the game from you , you are too pro for me lols as u said i didn't played real top player ,  come xwis or cncnet and play me bo5 then

[FlyingMustache]

1 hour ago, FReQuEnZy said:

The problem with your mod is that it changes the gameplay too much when I tried it the first time I was completely alienated by how much you've changed.

The balancing should be done slowly, bit by bit, so it doesn't completely alter the core gameplay and the metagame. 

 

I did change it bit by bit. All that you see wasn't done all at once. Hence why I put the "This list has been revised" at the top of the post. Also, what is so different about the mod? It plays mostly the same. I think you've only ever played with us once in it. You also don't ever get on discord anymore.

[Lud0wig]

8 hours ago, FReQuEnZy said:

All of what you said shows that you don't really know what you're talking about.

He never played Yuri's Revenge ^^

8 hours ago, ZAIN said:

Oh i don't need to learn the game from you , you are too pro for me lols as u said i didn't played real top player ,  come xwis or cncnet and play me bo5 then

Please stop, no one cares

[ore_truck]

16 hours ago, MapDesigner said:

I never seen a game is balanced about 1 single unit 

Allied and Yuri wouldn't be balanced without MCV or miners.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

14 hours ago, FlyingMustache said:

I did change it bit by bit. All that you see wasn't done all at once. Hence why I put the "This list has been revised" at the top of the post. Also, what is so different about the mod? It plays mostly the same. I think you've only ever played with us once in it. You also don't ever get on discord anymore.

I recall playing TOE MX and I tried to do a BO, but some stuff was removed. O.o Can't remember what was removed, but it made me go "WTF".

I usually listen to music when I play so I don't get on discord.

[FlyingMustache]

17 minutes ago, FReQuEnZy said:

I recall playing TOE MX and I tried to do a BO, but some stuff was removed. O.o Can't remember what was removed, but it made me go "WTF".

I usually listen to music when I play so I don't get on discord.

I think you're mixing mine with another. I haven't removed anything from the game.

Ah, gotcha

[XXxPrePxX]

Interested topics here.

 

Regarding MustacheX's mod:

I think it is one of the best balance options out there. In fact, I highly advise "MapDesigner" to check it out. He will be pleased with the tweaks, I think. With that being said, I'm not interested in playing it... that's because I'm not interested in learning a new set of BO's and balance options. I have 15+ years of experience with YR and I have no interest in replaying the base game with mods to re-learn it at my stage. :p.

 

To Zain's post:

 

I do not think anyone is denying that Yuri is the most OP faction.  I'm not sure how you go from calling Yuri OP in the first sentence, and then saying nothing is over powered in the second sentence. The number of usable factions has nothing to do with how over powered the side is. The difference between a deso and a spy/legionnaire is great. First and most importantly, deso's are built from radar tech, meaning they are much more prevalent in the game. This is no short statement. In 1on1 combat (AvS) if you let the allied opponent get to a tech on YR, you are doing something wrong (or the map forces it). In the 1000's of YR AvS games I've played, I've had to deal with spy's rarely and legionaries almost never. When the spy did succeed vs. me, I would just attack with everything I had and usually would win as the allied player had to spend money teching up, getting the spy in, whereas I should have been building a force to defeat them quickly (i.e. you don't want to go toe-to-toe with an allied teched player on YR, so you better be thinking about how you’re going to end the match early and not get to this stage). Next, they cost more money, and they are exceptionally weak against dogs and some basic defense. They can not be compared to the power of the deso.

(p.s. if your opponent is able to buy 4 chrono Legionnaire's against you, you are really not doing something right)

I've seen a number of Allied players go to soviet and play well. I don't think anyone is whining here, just a fun discussion regarding the game.

 

Edited September 16, 2017 by XXxPrePxX

[dkeeton]

I'm also someone who doesn't play Yuri's Revenge and I don't know what I'm talking about, but...

It didn't seem to me that the game needs a lot of mods to balance allied vs soviet. Just soviet power plant should be nerfed 150 -> 100.

[FlyingMustache]

23 minutes ago, XXxPrePxX said:

Interested topics here.

 

Regarding MustacheX's mod:

I think it is one of the best balance options out there. In fact, I highly advise "MapDesigner" to check it out. He will be pleased with the tweaks, I think. With that being said, I'm not interested in playing it... that's because I'm not interested in learning a new set of BO's and balance options. I have 15+ years of experience with YR and I have no interest in replaying the base game with mods to re-learn it at my stage. :p.

 

No no, I didn't change any bos. Only some of the units are adjusted. The meta game is the same, except for late game sovs. Apocs are worth using.

9 minutes ago, dkeeton said:

I'm also someone who doesn't play Yuri's Revenge and I don't know what I'm talking about, but...

It didn't seem to me that the game needs a lot of mods to balance allied vs soviet. Just soviet power plant should be nerfed 150 -> 100.

What is your reasoning for that?

[XXxPrePxX]

7 minutes ago, dkeeton said:

I'm also someone who doesn't play Yuri's Revenge and I don't know what I'm talking about, but...

It didn't seem to me that the game needs a lot of mods to balance allied vs soviet. Just soviet power plant should be nerfed 150 -> 100.

To me, a bit of imbalance is a very good thing. The way YR is set up is such that the soviets dominate the early part of the game and the allieds dominate the late part of the game. This creates the perfect type of gameplay in competitive 2on2/3on3/4on4 games where sides have to use the best of both worlds to succeed. That is the truly beautiful part of YR.

However, in 1on1 competitive games over a wide range of maps, the soviet player has the general advantage. My argument would stem from their ability to rush the allied player. On YR the slightly slower methodical pace allows me as a soviet player to perform almost perfect rushes every time. The APP problem, the slow build of the grizzly's, the less effective rocketeers (seemingly), the pace all factor into this. It is very difficult for an allied player to stop a good rush on most maps in YR.

 

[ZAIN]

I think you misunderstood , because the topic was for Allied vs Soviet balance so in that context i said nothing is op , of course we all know yuri is OP and we don't need to argue about that because we all agree on that , and imo in late game eco is not that much of a problem for allied player 2-4 legionnaire would not damage their eco much , and usually legionnaire come into play in big maps like jungle, sv . caverns, coldest , heck when you have to move your mcv to different part of the map  Desos of course is a super good unit but if u tell me its very easy to deso bomb a top allied player then its not like that mate ,and if one deso bomb fails then it means you are behind on time and allied player will get at least 2-4 mins and he will be more stronger as the game stretches .