Red Alert 2 Laboratory

[Lud0wig]

@Ezer_2000 Did you extract your rulesmd.ini from ra2md.mix -> localmd.mix OR expandmd01.mix?

I recorded myself building a Rhino Tank and a Grizzly Tank on Medium speed, Grizzly built in ≈31s and Rhino built in ≈33s

Rhino Tank costs 900$ and has BuildTimeMultiplier = 1.3

Grizzly Tank costs 700$ and has BuildTimeMultiplier = 1.5

[fir3w0rx]

Using XWIS' version of Yuri's Revenge, on speed 5 (Skirmish):

• Video of building a Rhino
• Video of building a Grizzly

 

Results... (running frame by frame using Media Player Classic)

Rhino build time:
Frames 14013 to 14716 (from the frame when the build icon turns grey, to the frame when the build icon says 'Ready', inclusive)
=704 frames (@60 frames per second)
=11.73333333333333... seconds

Grizzly build time:
Frames 17025 to 17512 (from the frame when the build icon turns grey, to the frame when the build icon says 'Ready', inclusive)
=488 frames (@60 frames per second)
=8.133333333333333... seconds

A difference of 3.6 seconds.

(NOTE: I set the recorder, Bandicam,  to record at 60fps, but there must have been frame-drops because it only recorded at 52fps. Disregard the YouTube stats because the important values are the ones reported by the in-game debug stats.)

Edited October 2, 2017 by fir3w0rx
Should be "704/488 FRAMES", not "704/488 fps"

[MapDesigner]

@fir3w0rx

Brilliant. Thx for the test. 

 

From your numbers we could see grizzly need 69% time to build relative to rhino. We can also see that 1 Rhino = 1.443 Grizzly (the inverse of 69%).

 

However, from my calculation on the other hand (numbers can be seen last page): 1 Rhino = 1.08 Grizzly

 

now this is clearly different values. I would still lean towards my results as bias, but lets try to be a bit objective.

 

We know from wiki page that grizzly build time is 28, and that the multiplyer is 1.5 so it will be 42 IF MULTIPLIED (which is exactly my result)

 

Rhino on the other hand has 36 to 45 build time.

 

Now, the ratio can either be 1 of 3 possible cases:

1. Ratio = 36 / 28 = 1.285 (i.e. Grizzly is 28% faster than rhino)
2. Ratio = 45 / 28 = 1.61 (Grizzly being 60% faster)
3. Ratio = 45 / 42 = 1.071 (7% faster, which is pretty close to my finding above)
4. Ratio = 36 X 1.5 / (28 X 1.5) = exactly like numbr 1.

now now, there could be a reason why you had such different result. Maybe becuz you did only 1 tank. try doing 10 tanks and divide by 10 after that, to eliminate as much error. Another reason could be becuz, well, game speed isnt always constant so... not too sure. Yea if you are measuring with Frames then it should be correct measurement. However, how can you explain that your grizzly to rhino ratio is not close to any of the above 3 possibilities?

 

 

[dkeeton]

On CnCNet the rules.ini says things have build speed of 0.7 "game minutes" for a $1000 unit. There are 900 frames in a "game minute".

Using that information and factoring in the build speed multiplier for Rhino is 1.3 and the Grizzly is 1.5 and considering Games on YR are typically 50-55 fps. We can calculate:

So a $900 Rhino is

(0.7 * 900) * (900/1000) / 55 * 1.3
= 13.401818181818182 seconds
= 737 frames

 

A $700 Grizzly is

(0.7 * 900) * (700/1000) / 55 * 1.5
= 12.027272727272727 seconds
= 661 frames

 

11 hours ago, fir3w0rx said:

Rhino build time:
Frames 14013 to 14716 (from the frame when the build icon turns grey, to the frame when the build icon says 'Ready', inclusive)
=704 fps (@60 frames per second)
=11.73333333333333... seconds

Grizzly build time:
Frames 17025 to 17512 (from the frame when the build icon turns grey, to the frame when the build icon says 'Ready', inclusive)
=488 fps (@60 frames per second)
=8.133333333333333... seconds

 

The closest I could get to your times is Grizzly having 1.1 build speed multiplier and Rhinos having 1.25. For 485 frames and 708 respectively.  I'm not sure why the XWIS rules would be different.

Edited October 3, 2017 by dkeeton
clarification

[fir3w0rx]

5 hours ago, dkeeton said:

There are 900 frames in a "game minute". Games on YR are typically 50-55 fps.

This line seems to contradict itself. If the game is running at 900 frames per minute, wouldn't that be equivalent to 15 fps, not 50-55?

(900 frames / 60 seconds = 15fps) - which is really slow and almost unplayable.

[dkeeton]

28 minutes ago, fir3w0rx said:

6 hours ago, dkeeton said:

There are 900 frames in a "game minute". Games on YR are typically 50-55 fps.

This line seems to contradict itself. If the game is running at 900 frames per minute, wouldn't that be equivalent to 15 fps, not 50-55?

(900 frames / 60 seconds = 15fps) - which is really slow and almost unplayable.

I've edited the statement to make it more clear.

And even more clarity here. In the part (0.7 * 900), it's ... 0.7Minutes * 900Frames/Minute ... the Minutes cancel out and you're left with Frames as the unit, then it needs to be adjusted from 1000 credit unit to a 900 credit, so multiply by the ratio (900/1000). Frames remains the unit. Then to convert from Frames to Seconds you divide by FPS. Frames cancels out leaving Seconds. And finally adjust by the multiplier.

Knowing me... that probably makes less sense.

[LeOwNzAll]

Why all these shit calcul ?

 

Just make a sov wf.

Plays with allied, start making grizzly / rhino same time (according 2 sec of deviation)

Build like 10 of each. 

 

See how many grizzly you have for how many rhino.

You have the ratio +/- the deviation of 2 sec; which be considered as null as 10 tanks will take lot of time to do.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

Don't forget that sovs get their wf first.

 

[Ezer_2000]

On 01.10.2017 at 6:46 PM, Lud0wig said:

@Ezer_2000 Did you extract your rulesmd.ini from ra2md.mix -> localmd.mix OR expandmd01.mix?

I recorded myself building a Rhino Tank and a Grizzly Tank on Medium speed, Grizzly built in ≈31s and Rhino built in ≈33s

Rhino Tank costs 900$ and has BuildTimeMultiplier = 1.3

Grizzly Tank costs 700$ and has BuildTimeMultiplier = 1.5

Really, i forgot about this extension. Just now extracted it from expandmd01.mix and looked in it. 1,3 and 1,5 are correct values. So the stuff what I posted before is wrong. That was my mistake.

So, rhino reqires better cash flow.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Ezer_2000

[LeOwNzAll]

14 minutes ago, FReQuEnZy said:

Don't forget that sovs get their wf first.

 

Yes; just to see the time difference making grizzly / rhino.

I recommand them to play in Ally Match vs 1 IA.

They build together wf next each other.

 

I don't know the time; but from my experience of player, rhino is almost like a miner. 

Consider miner is the reference time; it's like a rhino "time-cost" around 1200; and an grizzly 900-1000. Every 4/5 rhino, allied get 1 more grizzly.

[Chrono Vortex]

It only now occurs to me that there's a way more useful piece of info which comes from this post I made here a while ago that I didn't bring up at the time.

If you're Soviet and you want to destroy a pill box or a sentry gun, you can outrange it by sticking a Rhino in any of the green cells, since it has 0.25 more range.

[aWarN1GGa]

On 10/3/2017 at 12:25 PM, FReQuEnZy said:

Don't forget that sovs get their wf first.

 

 

Most sov players lose this advantage because they're not fast enough to deploy buildings/mcv, also all this calcul may be useless if you have to cancel 10 tanks to make a flack truck ?

[MapDesigner]

On 9/22/2017 at 4:32 PM, Chrono Vortex said:

If the wiki is to be believed, there is no maximum. But since the amount of time that gets knocked off your build speed every time you build an extra factory is determined by an exponential function, the benefit of building an extra factory would decrease the more you have. That could easily make it seem like there's a maximum.

so I tested more than 6 WarFactories speed. Indeed, the benifit is not limited to 6 war factories.

 

I tested MCV with 50 warfactories, and I could make each in 4 seconds instead of 180 (as fastas conscript): I could produce 30 MCV in 120 seconds. Each 10 MCV built by my WF only 1 spy is built from barracks.

 

your statement is questionable though. I only find it to be increasing benifit not decreasing one (look numbers in OP). the benifit of exponential functions increase every step; they never have decreasing benifit. but I think it is capped at conscript build time. in fact, I barely noticed any difference between 1 and 2 WFs, but 3 and 4 it is clear.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

What I think he means is that adding a second factory to your first factory decreases the unit build time more than adding a 7th factory to the 6th.

[total_annihilation666]

Equal amounts of Mirage Tanks vs. Rhino Tanks: Rhino's win —that's why I kept going as Soviet. Some Allied player at my LAN cafe was kicking ass by making hordes of Rocketeers, Mirage Tanks, expansion bases, & initially sending Spies to the Barracks. All I could do was Wall my base up & built Grand Cannons —I lost that battle, but did better than my two allies who were Soviet (they built Apocalypse Tank & Demo Truck.) Felt good to know Rhino Tanks are still pretty good, & Soviet is powerful. Borris once was able to take out 3 Tanks but now that doesn't seem to be the case. I've been hooked on Skirmish ever since —I wrote a Strategy Guide but lost it when my computer broke. I still have some strategies inked down, like sending Conscript hordes & a few Terror Drones in front of your tanks as Cannon Fodder, I forgot Kikematamitos force-fired ore to destroy them, though I've done this in Tiberian Sun (I play both game (I play NOD vs. enemy GDI.)

[MapDesigner]

hi,

 

so, time for todays test:

1. When Barracks is surrounded by walls or other buildings, refund is given for the created unit; Moreover, cloning vat, in this case, will never produce a clone.
2. However, when cloning vat is surrounded, no refund is given. 
3. Rhino tank production time is 46 secs, whereas grizzlies are produced in 42 secs (both tests in yuris reveng). This has been verified by conscript creation: 13 conscripts are trained for each 1 rhino tank, and 12 conscripts are trained for 1 grizzly
4. There seems to be false claims in the wiki regarding ore purifier; Wiki claims ore purifier increases the income from grinder as well as tech oil derricks. However, as tested in yuris revenge, patch 1.01, this is false. cloning vat + grinder doesnt give any more than refund

 

18 hours ago, FReQuEnZy said:

What I think he means is that adding a second factory to your first factory decreases the unit build time more than adding a 7th factory to the 6th.

Oh

I thought he was talking about build speed.

but still, thinking of it in terms of speed is better; if built time first time is reduced from 20 to 14 (6 seconds less), and the second time is reduced from 14 to 9 (5 seconds less), the second time is clearly better becuz: 

1. the first time makes 1.42 tanks built instead of 1: in other words it amplifies tanks by 142%
2. the second time it makes 2.22 tanks made instead of 1.42 from the first time and instead of 1 initially.
3. if we compare this second time to the first time 2.22/1.42 =1.556 ; in other words, it amplifies tank production by 155.6%

 

though, somebody mentioned its constant 120% amplification. although I really doubt that, I would argue that even if it is true, the third WF would still be better than the second one. imagine the 2nd WF makes 2 tanks instead of 1, and the 3rd WF makes 4 instead of 2, would this make both WF with equal value? or would 3rd one be better? but on the other hand, if 2nd WF make it 2 tanks instead of 1, and 3rd WF make it produce 3 tanks instead of 2, would they then be of equal value? I would choose the second option (but maybe someone who knows math can explain)

none the less, becuz of the data I pulled and exist in the first post, I doubt this information to begin with: i.e., adding WF or Barrax would not amplify production/training by 20% at all. 

Edited July 10, 2018 by MapDesigner

[ore_truck]

1 hour ago, MapDesigner said:

When Barracks is surrounded by walls or other buildings, refund is given for the created unit; Moreover, cloning vat, in this case, will never produce a clone.

It was patched long ago. it used to be possible to get infantry for free by walling the barracks (get back refund) and the cloning vat would still produce in RA2.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

Quote

; production & power effects
MultipleFactory=0.8       ; Ick.  This is now a straight discount multiplier that is cumulative.  ie at .8 you get 1, .8, .64, .512 instead of 1, 1, 1.25,etc   ;gs factory bonus for multiples [1=full bonus, 0=no bonus] (def=1) <--their way at 1 you get 1, 1, .5, .33, .25, etc

- rulesmd.ini

Edited July 10, 2018 by FReQuEnZy

[MapDesigner]

time for todays test

 

1. Multiple ore purifiers stack additively; having 4 of them doubles each ore load
2. Multiple Industrial plants stack multiplicatively.  War miner price is
   1.   1050 @ 1 plant
   2. 787 @ 2 plants
   3. 590 @ 3 plants

terror drone goes down to 281 and then 210 lol, Rhino is something like 379 @ 3 plants.

[MapDesigner]

how does prism tower work? I remember I kill Yuri miner with 1 hit. 

[Jacen Solo]

On 7/30/2018 at 4:08 AM, MapDesigner said:

how does prism tower work? I remember I kill Yuri miner with 1 hit. 

https://youtu.be/aU8s4af5MjQ

[total_annihilationx666]

I read in the GameFAQs guide by S. Rudiyanto that the Industrial Plant: Reduces production costs and production speed of all Vehicles (including Aircraft and Naval) by 25%. Also, if I remember correctly, each additional War Factory increases production speed by 25% —can't verify this anymore & you can have this increment in speed for upto 6 additional buildings.

Edited August 9, 2018 by laserbeak

[MapDesigner]

Can psychic dominator controll hidden submarines and dolphins? I wonder.

 

I expect so but i guess ill have to test

[MapDesigner]

the most important test of all time is:

When short game is OFF, i.e. all units having to die in order to lose, the Paradrop airplane is considered a unit. if you lose all your units but you happened to shoot a paradrop, then you will not lose unliss the plane dies or all your coming reinforcements die.

 

How I found out:

1. Pick US
2. Capture soviet
3. build radar next to nuclear plant
4. sell all your buildings except radar and plant
5. kill ur miners
6. gather all your infantry around nuclear plant.
7. drop the paras in the middle of the map
8. destroy the nuclear plant before para-drops ur units.

Result: all your units are now dead, but you still have not lost. Continue and win the mission.

[MapDesigner]

New Test:

These attacks Cannot Destroy Ore:

GGI, All Tesla Weapons, Prism Tower, IFV Tanks, 

 

These Weapons Can Destroy Gem or Ore:

France Grand Cannon Tower, Harrier and Korea air plane

 

I havent tested kirov or flaks. I can only assume flaks do not destroy it.

 

 

Test 2: miners cannot mine if units are standing on ore. Deployed GIs will not move out of the way for the miners. miners can get stuck if too many units are on ore, miners will stuck sucking ore, but still getting nothing.