Yuri Rebalance Patch (Community) Changelog

[[CC] RaVaGe]

Yuri Rebalance Patch (Community) Changelog

The Yuri Rebalance Patch is a community effort to rebalance the Yuri side (faction) in C&C Yuri's Revenge
so that it's not as overbearing and easy to abuse as in the vanilla game.

 

 

How can I use it?

You can toggle the patch on/off through a checkbox in the Skirmish & Custom game lobbies.
This patch is a completely optional feature and is not implemented in the Ladder games.

 

How was the Yuri side changed?

Summary:
This patch makes Yuri's entire army more micro intensive and
forces the Yuri player to put more thought into each action.

 

Changes in version: 1.31
 

Initiate

• Reduced Initiate Garrison damage from 63 to 25 (v1.00)
• Reduced Elite Initiate Garrison damage from 73 to 30 (v1.00)
  The overwhelming damage of the Initiate made it possible for Yuri to set up an invincible defence on small urban maps.

 

Brute

• Reduced Brute's cost by $100 to keep it useful through out all stages of the game. (v1.31)
• Reduced Brute's sell value to $100 to fix the mutator grinding exploit. (v1.00)

 

Virus

• Increased Virus' weapon range by 2 to make it a viable counter to the Desolator. (v1.00)

 

Bioreactor

•     Reduced base level Bio-Reactor power output by 100. (v1.00)
•     Bioreactor is back at the default base value of 150 as the reduction made it too difficult for Yuri to use defensive structures in the early game.(v1.31)
•     Reduced Bio-Reactor power upgrade output gained by inserted infantry from 100 to 50 to balance the cost to the output.(v1.31)
•     This also affects the price of Yuri's superweapons and defensive structures as Yuri has to build more Bioreactors.

Slave Miner

•     Increased Slave Miner cost by $250. (v1.00)
•     Returned Slave Miner cost to default as Yuri was falling too far behind in the early game.(v1.31)
•     Reduced Slave Miner's health from 2000 to 1500, applies to both structure and vehicle modes, this stops Yuri players from expanding too far too fast. (v1.31)
•     Salve miner now builds at the same rate from the structures and vehicles tab which helps reduce Yuri's weakness to rushes. (v1.00)
•     Reduced Slave Miner's damage vs terror drones from 400% to 100%, this makes terror drones more viable against Yuri. (v1.00)

Lasher Tank

•     Reduced Lasher Tank Build time by 20% to allow Yuri to harass and fight at a lower tech level. (v1.00)

Gattling Tank

•     Increased Gattling Tank's movement speed by 2. (v1.00)
•     Returned Gattling Tank's movement speed to default as this made Gattling Tanks too effective against air units. (v1.31)
•     Change Gattling Tank's armour to medium to make it more durable against flak track spam. (v1.00)
•     Returned armor to default as this made gattling tanks too effective against infantry units. (v1.31)

Gattling Cannon

•     Reduced the cost of Gattling Cannon by $500 to keep it useful with reductions done to gattling weapons. (v1.00)
•     Set the cost of the Gattling Cannon to default as it was too easy to build a wall of Gattling cannons at the reduced cost. (v1.31)

Gattling Weapons

•     Reduced Gattling weapons damage to infantry armor types by 20% to improve the usefulness of infantry (including the rocketeer) against Yuri. (v1.00)
•     Reduced Gattling weapons damage against terror drones by 75% to make the use of drones a viable option against Yuri. (v1.00)
•     Reduced Gattling weapons damage against heavy armoured vehicles by 5% as Gattling Tank bunkers were too powerful on chokepoints and small maps. (v1.00)
•     Set Gattling weapons damage against light armoured vehicles back to default as the 5% reduction made Mirage and Prism tanks
•     too difficult to combat in the late game. (v1.31)

Chaos Drone

•     Increased Chaos Drone's movement speed by 2. This makes it easier to agressively use the Chaos drone. (v1.00)
•     Reduced Chaos Drone's cost by $200, now $800. This makes the chaos drone more cost effective. (v1.31)
•     Reduced Chaos Drone's build time by 10%.(v1.00) Set to default as it made it too easy to amass Chaos Drones. (v1.31)
•     Reduced Chaos Drone's Berserk effect duration on infantry by 25%. (v1.00)
•     Reduced Chaos Drone's Berserk effect duration on vehicles by 25%. (v1.00)
      The berserk duration was too long causing the chaos drone to act as a hard counter to most units,
      when it's intended to be used as a harassing or support unit.

Magnetron

•     Magnetron can no longer fire up cliffs. This stops players from picking up miners and units from on top of cliffs.  (v1.00)
•     Decreased Magnetron's anti vehicle weapon rate of fire by 90, this slows down auto-mag,
      previously spamming attack move would immobilize a large armoured army. (v1.00)
•     Increased Magnetron's anti structure weapon rate of fire by 10. (v1.00) Set to default as this change was not needed. (v1.31)

Mastermind

•     Mastermind now overloads when controlling above 2 units instead of above 3. This stops masterminds from being completely
      overwhelming when amassed and forces the Yuri players to micro manage the mind controlled units. (v1.00)
•     Reduced Mastermind's mind-control weapon rate of fire by 50.
      Set to default as it's better to control the mind control rate through overload damage per original game design. (v1.31)
•     Increased Mastermind's mind-control weapon range by 1 to make Masterminds more effective against Mirage tanks,
      as they previously had no chance against them. (v1.00)
•     Increased Mastermind's health by 100.
      Set to default as this was not needed due to returning rate of fire to default. (v1.31)
•     Mastermind can detect disguises of spies and mirage tanks, this makes the Mastermind useful against Allied faction's late game tech. (v1.00)
•     Mastermind's overload damage amount increases faster, before it would wait until 6,10,50 units are mind-controlled by the
      Mastermind to increase overload damage, now each additional unit increases the damage received. (v1.00)
•     Mastermind's overload damage reduced to match increased rate levels previously 0,50,100,500 per each level now
      0,50,50,50 due to increasing the rate not the damage, this makes it harder to kill or grind mind controlled units as more are controlled. (v1.00)
•     Mastermind's overload damage rate set to increase at an incremental rate ((0,70,40,20) lower is faster) on the amount of units controlled,
      this allows the Yuri player to micro to avoid damage as intended by original game design. (v1.00)

Floating Disk

•     Reduced Floating Disk's health by 100. (v1.00)
•     Reduced FLoating Disk's damage to vehicles by 20%. Set to default to keep the disk effective against Allied units in the late game. (v1.31)
•     Increased Floating DIsk's weapon range by 1.  Set to default as the longer range was too effective against Soviets and Allied  anti air units. (v1.31)
•     Increased Floating Disk's cost by $250 to $2000. (v1.00)

 

Boomer Submarine

•     Reduced Boomer Submarine land based missile count from 2 to 1. Set to default as the boomer now requires a Battle lab to be built.  (v1.31)
•     Reduced Boomer Submarine Missile health by 15. Set to default as it made the boomer too ineffective in the late game. (v1.31)
•     Yuri Boomer Submarine now requires a Yuri Battle Lab to be built as it was too easy to rush and overwhelm the opponent. (v1.31)
•     Reduced Boomer Submarine cost by $250 due to being available later in the game. (v1.31)

 

Psychic Tower

•     Increased Psychic Tower's power requirement from 100 to 150, this makes spamming Psychic towers more costly.

Tank Bunker

•     Reduced Tank Bunker's health from 1000 to 600.
•     V3 Missiles now deal damage to the units inside tank bunkers as well as the bunker.
•     Dreadnought Missiles now deal damage to the units inside tank bunkers as well as the bunker.
•     Boomer Submarine Missiles now deal damage to the units inside tank bunkers as well as the bunker.
•     Kirov Bombs now deal damage to the units inside tank bunkers as well as the bunker.
  • All of the missile and bomb changes stop the tank inside the bunker from escaping after a good hit.

Genetic Mutator Super-weapon

•     Reduced charge time of Genetic Muatator superweapon by 1 minute as it's the weakest of the 3 first level superweapons.
•     Now it behaves like and recharged at the same rate as the American Paradrop special.

   

Other bugs/exploits

Reduced Terror Drone sell value to 1 as they stack with the value of a unit they infest when grinded.
This caused iron curtained drones to boost Yuri's economy if a droned Yuri's army was sent into the grinder.

 

 

I don't like it! What should I do?

The changes in this patch are dependant on people trying them out (testing) and reporting their experiences in this thread.

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by RaVaGe

[cypher]

good work!

[DAIJOUBU?]

Bear in mind that a few warheads were originally balanced around medium armor being reserved for miners. This means that the gatling tank will now have some extra resistances that you might not have intended.

The most important warheads that you should visit in the code and consider are [UltraAP] [UltraAPE] and [GUARDWH], which affect the Tank Destroyer and all GGI-related weapons, all of which are weaker against miners than against both tanks and light vehicles. I'm sure you've considered this too, but since you mentioned flak spam, the flak anti-ground warhead is exactly as effective against medium armor as against heavy armor, which the competing flak track happens to already have.

Other than that, looking forward to playing the mod. I would have liked if you explained each group of changes so we knew exactly what problem was being addressed or what your intention was (you have listed adequate explanations for many changes).

I will never want to see this on ladder without a 2/3 majority agreement.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

The medium armor change was to make the gattling tank more hardy so that it would survive scouting and still maintain usefulness on small maps as the damage nerf was aimed mainly at small maps where Yuri can endlessly mag your tanks over a gattling bunker.

[XXxPrePxX]

There's definitely some nice ideas here. A lot of thought went into this. Props!

[Tkragon]

I made a video containing these changes. For those who prefer watching a video over reading the change log.

Link

Hope you don't mind using the text from the change-log.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

https://youtu.be/O-XvZqU9Do8?t=45
Did you realise that one Bio reactor was full of initiates?

Chaos drone build speed test is not a great comparison, because you started at different times.
The mastermind comparison is pointless, as the health increase is meant to work in conjunction with the overload damage.

I would still recommend reading over the video.

Edited November 20, 2018 by RaVaGe

[Kikematamitos]

Looks like Yuri is more powerful in early game now, so is more easy to grow to late game. 

[Tkragon]

3 hours ago, RaVaGe said:

https://youtu.be/O-XvZqU9Do8?t=45
Did you realise that one Bio reactor was full of initiates?

Chaos drone build speed test is not a great comparison, because you started at different times.
The mastermind comparison is pointless, as the health increase is meant to work in conjunction with the overload damage.

I would still recommend reading over the video.

1. At that time the point is the power drain of the Psychic Tower not the amount of the power provided by the BioReactor. And that is on display as I show the power drain before the placement and after. 
2. You're right! That chaos drone build speed was an editing mistake on my part. I should have triple checked instead of just double checked before rendering & publishing. I did point out that mistake in the description of the video as soon as I caught it.

3. It was the best way I could show the extra health mastermind has now, without asking for help from another player as I cannot Mind Control my own units from what I know. While I agree it's not how that extra health was meant it still shows there is extra health.

About you still recommending reading over the video:

1. My video isn't meant to replace the change log. I choose my words poorly in my original post.   

2. “A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, said Jojen. The man who never reads lives only one.” 

Cheers! 

[reflexion]

Can you solve the boomer problem in early game? My suggestion is, that you can build boomers after naval, but the boomers can only use their submarine torpedos. After building the tech, they can use the long range weapon.

Maybe its possible to fix the early game advantage on water maps for yuri... I mean, there is no additional fix needed, if you can change the tech level of the boomer's weapon.

 

Apart from that, well done for this first patch

Edited November 20, 2018 by reflexion

[Ferret]

@AchromicWhite
It'd be interesting if we got Funky on-board with us on TD and RA1 rebalancing.

@RaVaGe
Nice work!

[[CC] RaVaGe]

49 minutes ago, reflexion said:

Can you solve the boomer problem in early game?

You will need to scout Yuri and make anti air in advance.

47 minutes ago, Ferret said:

Nice work! 

Thanks, you guys should make an optional patch like I did.

[reflexion]

14 minutes ago, RaVaGe said:

You will need to scout Yuri and make anti air in advance.

Thanks, you guys should make an optional patch like I did.

 

I know  - But yuri is in early game on water maps too strong in case of hidden boomers. Maybe the balance changes fix the problem a little bit, but i think its a good idea, especially on some qm maps.

 

Second. Can you delay the psycho dominator like the nuke? Perhaps you can extend the range of the psycho dominator for 1 tile in radius? If you anticipate (like nuke for example) you can further overtake tanks. But the instant super is a advantage against the other supers. Its not the most important thing with yuri, but perhaps you can take into consideration.

 

Maybe we can do a test phase on QM (by implementing for a month) to check the actual balance changes. I watched some games on ur channel and in my opinion we are on a good way. After 17 years of non-patches and handling yuri, we finally can do it. VERY VERY NICE :-)

Edited November 20, 2018 by reflexion

[Andy.]

Hard pass

[Reano]

it will soon be 'not' Yuri's revenge

[FlyingMustache]

My only concern is that changing Yuri requires changing the other factions too. The balance of this game involves all factions' arsenals. With this "optional" setting, the higher level players that have bias against Yuri will just flip this option on in order weaken him and keep their mindless tank spamming fests with the most dominant country in the game: Iraq.

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by FlyingMustache

[XXxPrePxX]

11 hours ago, Andy. said:

Hard pass

 

4 hours ago, Reano said:

it will soon be 'not' Yuri's revenge

Anything constructive to add about the patch discussion? Why do you not like it?

 

3 hours ago, FlyingMustache said:

My only concern is that changing Yuri requires changing the other factions too.

I don't think this needs to be true. 

[LeOwNzAll]

1st Ravage i want to say you good job, it's not easy to perform all these things.

I write in the quote what i think for most of changements.

From my it can be a good thing for "customs games"; but for quickmatch; it's not a good thing.

Some players can already beat Yuri as Allied or Sov. So if you downgrade Yuri (it's the case), it will be even easier for them.

When designer make a "balance patch", they affect all factions (cf. WC3; CnC3; SC2 etc.).

In your case you should also change allied and sov. But it will also affect the match allied vs sov; so even harder to perform a good patch.

 

So let's talk all your things.

On 11/18/2018 at 2:17 PM, RaVaGe said:

 

How was Yuri side changed?

Summary:
This patch makes Yuri's entire army more micro intensive and
forces the Yuri player to put more thought into each action. = > ????

--> What i see from Iraq players, it's spamming Rhino and some fodders. What i see from Allied players it's spamming grizzly + rockeeters.

Some good allied tech, then combine mirage+prism and BF that's a pretty good thing.

What i see from Yuri players it's making gat/mag/MM/disc.

If you want to put more micro/thought, change iraq.

 

Changes in version : 1.00
 

Initiate

• Reduced Initiate Garrison damage from 63 to 25.
• Reduced Elite Initiate Garrison damage from 73 to 30.

Initiate are more expansive than conscript but less resistant. GI's are better (more resistant and can deploy).

I don't know what is the power of GI's in garrison, but the only interesant thing for initiate is the garrison. So it has to be better then GI's. Or make it lower price ? faster ? more resistant?

Brute

• Reduced Brute's cost by $200 to keep it useful through out the game.
• Reduced Brute's sell value by $100 to balance the mutator grinding exploit.

be careful, spamming brute (cloning vat) could be a pretty good tactic.

Virus

• Increased Virus' weapon range by 2 to make it a viable counter to Desolators.

It's a part of Micro. You have to shoot, go back, same for deso, deploy go back. If you want more micro, let it as it is.

In your case there is no more micro.

CnC is "Easy to play, hard to master"

Bioreactor

• Reduced base level Bio-Reactor power output by 100.

Can be a good idea.

 

Slave Miner

• Increased Slave Miner cost by $250.

Slave miner can't be sold as Ref. Ref cost 2000-300$ selling so 1700. That's why miner slave are cheaper than ref.

• Reduced Slave Miner's health from 2000 to 1250, applies to both structure and vehicle modes.

Slave miner are the slowest in the game. Allied miners can chrono but weakest. Soviet miner their speed is as allied speed but more resistant. Slave miner the slowest but the more resistant. It's logical, as slave miner can slave far, it can be very weak, even now with 2000 HP.

• Salve miner now builds at the same rate from the structures and vehicles tab.

It will slow down the early game for Yuri. If Yuri goes for 1 miner from WF, vs a Sov/Allied/Yuri rush (Rhino/lashers/grizzly) he will be directly dead. Now, as Sov/Allied/Yuri, you can stop a guy if he does not make miner from WF. I have some doubt you could with this changement.

• Reduced Slave Miner's damage vs terror drones from 400% to 100%.

When your miners are going too far, you need to protect them. MM for example. If both gattling/miner can't shoot a drone. You can't stay a all army in each patch of ore, and in your base, and in attack.

Also to see if drones can kill more than one slave. Slave can take 150$ right ? If drones can kill 2-3 slave, you will slow down yuri economy by just spamming drone, during this time you can tech up.

Lasher Tank

• Reduced Lasher Tank Build time by 20%.

Be careful, as lashers are better than grizzly (rate of fire is better), if they build faster, combined with Brute 300$, you could see so horrible rush or spam LASHERS+Brute. More efficient than grizzly/rhino+fodders.  If you want more micro, it's not the good way.

Gattling Tank

• Increased Gattling Tank's movement speed by 2.
• Change Gattling Tank's armour to medium to make it more durable against flak track spam.

 

Gattling Cannon

• Reduced the cost of Gattling Cannon by $500 to keep it useful with reductions done to gattling weapons.

I dont know the comparison between Sentry/Bunker and Gatling canon after the reducing, but gattling canon shoot longer, in AIR, and can shoot more powerful when the machine gun is at top. It can be a bit strong.

Gattling Cannon

• Reduced Gattling weapons damage to infantry armor types by 20% to improve the usefulness of infantry (including the rocketeer) against Yuri.
• Reduced Gattling weapons damage against terror drones by 75% to make the use of drones a viable option against Yuri.

Drone can be stopped by IFV engi for allied. By going back with rhino for sov. For yuri you would need 2 gattling, or 1 gattling  1 mag to stop only one drone? You need spam gattling to stop drone?

• Reduced Gattling weapons damage against heavy armored vehicles by 5%.
• Reduced Gattling weapons damage against light armored vehicles by 10%.

 

 

Chaos Drone

• Increased Chaos Drone's movement speed by 2.
• Reduced Chaos Drone's cost by $400, now $600.
• Reduced Chaos Drone's build time by 10%.
• Reduced Chaos Drone's Berserk effect duration on infantry by 25%.
• Reduced Chaos Drone's Berserk effect duration on vehicles by 25%.

Be careful, the only patch that Westwood done (1.000 to 1.001) was to decrease the speed of chaos drone.

You could spam it early game and could be terrible. You could see a match one drone for each chaos drone made. Was not very fun lol! And for allied, before Lab (without mirage) a combinaison of drone + lashers was very good...

 

Magnetron

• Magnetron can no longer fire up cliffs.

The only way for a yuri player to stop someone at cliff is magnetron.

For Sov, you have rhino enough strong or IC (or deso). For allied; you can use BF which shoot also on the top of the cliff, or have a big army prism/mirage/BF.

For Yuri it seems you would need a spam lashers + brute in fodder. It's making the game as if you play as sov or allied (before tech); so very basic and sad.

• Decreased Magnetron's anti vehicle weapon rate of fire by 90, this slows down auto-mag.

--> This is a good idea.

• Increased Magnetron's  anti structure weapon rate of fire by 10.

Don't know if it's usefull/necessary ?

 

Mastermind

• Mastermind now overloads when controlling above 2 units instead of  above 3.

MM cost 2 rhinos, and more if you have industrial plant. If it can take only 2 tanks, it's not very cost effective.

• Reduced Mastermind's mind-control weapon rate of fire by 70.

This was a good thing for MM but also his weakness, if you spam gi's/conscripts/flak the MM can be overload very quickly.

As he can control only 2 units, you are maybe trying to make them less weak face spam fodders?

• Increased Mastermind's mind-control weapon range by 1.

Very Very dangerous. MM could mind tanks before they can shoot, including mirage. Now you mirage can shoot without being minded, and rhino you can force to shoot even after being minded.

• Increased Mastermind's health by 100.
• Mastermind can detect disguises of spies and mirage tanks, this makes the Mastermind useful against Allied late game tech.

The match in late game for Yuri is very hard vs Allied. But that's the game. You have to be smarter than the allied to beat. Allied is known in the game as the best army late game. I think this the gameplay of sov/yuri, to stop the allied to tech.

• Mastermind's overload damage amount increases faster, before it would wait until 6,10,50 units are mind-controlled  by the Mastermind to increase overload damage, now each additional unit increases the damage received.
• Mastermind's overload damage reduced to match increased rate levels previously 0,50,100,500 per each level now 0,50,50,50 due to increasing the rate not  the damage, this makes it harder to kill or grind mind controlled units as more are controlled.
• Mastermind's overload damage rate set to increase at an incremental rate ((0,70,40,20) lower is faster) on the amount of units controlled, this allows the Yuri player to micro to avoid damage as intended by original unit design.

 

Floating Disk

• Reduced Floating Disk's health by 100.

Why ? All Yuri units are weak (lashers/gatling/mag). MM is "ok" but can't attack.

• Reduced FLoating Disk's damage to vehicles by 20%.

Why?

• Increased Floating DIsk's weapon range by 1.

Why? They can already shoot by moving.

• Increased Floating Disk's cost by $250 to $2000.

Now disc cost 3+ flak or 3 IFV. with IP, it cost even more. I don't think they need to be touched.

Boomer Submarine

• Reduced Boomer Submarine  land based missile count from 2 to 1.
• Reduced Boomer Submarine Missile health by 15.

 

Psychic Tower

• Increased Psychic Tower's power requirement from 100 to 150.

 

Tank Bunker

• Reduced Tank Bunker's health from 1000 to 600.
• V3 Missiles now deal damage to the units inside tank bunkers as well as the bunker.
• Dreadnought Missiles now deal damage to the units inside tank bunkers as well as the bunker.
• Boomer Submarine Missiles now deal damage to the units inside tank bunkers as well as the bunker.
• Kirov Bombs now deal damage to the units inside tank bunkers as well as the bunker.

 

Genetic Mutator Super-weapon

• Increased charge time of Genetic Mutator super-weapon by 1 minute.

 

Other bugs/exploits

Reduced Terror Drone sell value to 1 as they stack with the value of a unit they infest when grinded.
This caused iron curtained drones to boost Yuri's economy if a droned Yuri's army was sent into the grinder.

You are wrong here. It's not a bug. To stop IC drone (or just drone) Both allied and sov has the repair building. It's the "Anti-drone'.

Do you see any players making drone vs Repair IFV or Repair building?  No. You lost you drone 500$ for nothing.

Yuri has nothing. The only  thing it's the grinder, but ppl still doing drone. Yuri get back the money (not full for MM) but lose his unit. As you know that you need 4 times more time to build a MM for a drone it's good deal. The only way to try to "balance" it, it's to get all money from drone.

The way it's done, if ppl want to play it seriously, it will be more multiwar; lashers + brute. No tactic, no intelligence.

For sure it will be easier for players who prefer just spam (multiwar rhino/grizzly).

 

And some points show also that - i think - you don't play good as Yuri so you don't know exactly his advantages/weakness.

On 11/18/2018 at 2:17 PM, RaVaGe said:

 

 

 

 

[VWWWWWWWWWWW]

Looks like a lot of people who are used to abusing Yuri aren't liking this.

Anyways, not sure if changing units is a good idea. Let Yuri stay OP and let the pussies who suck without keep using it

[CykaRushB]

The yuri sniper range is way too far now. Deso doesn't  even stand a chance 

Edited November 21, 2018 by CykaRushB

[FlyingMustache]

1 hour ago, CykaRushB said:

The yuri sniper range is way too far now. Deso doesn't  even stand a chance 

They had the same range before. Virus wasn't a good unit to use against desolator. It was better to tech and go disks. Among many other reasons lol.

[Reano]

Most of the items basically reverse what the developers 'intended'

Cons...

1) initiates garrisoned - so now make the iniates have no strengths compared to other troops (e.g. cost vs bunker), etc
2) reduce grind value also another designed capability being reduced cause 'maybe' people on here too scared of peoples Yuri like Andy's
3) The Slave Miner is supposed to be a building and a vehicle now you reduce the strength and increase the cost of it further reducing Yuri eco, as I write Im laughing at the obvious reason this is intended for thank god its not part of how the game was designed by professional game developers and software programmers
4) Reduce, reduce, reduce gattling Cannon one of Yuri's primary tactic with mag against allied or Sov
5) Overload of MM completely different to how game designer intended overload over 2 LOL ......
6) Most of the increases are tokenism to maybe counter by saying "oh look we decrease brute cost"

In general its easy to see its just a "we dont like Yuri so lets reduce all its stength to what the designer didnt intend cause ppl like Andy, etc bash me (just saying how it seems, I have no beef with anyone..)

Pro's

It's optional. Might as well just make it MetaYuri, ShadowYuri or some other game. Luckily most games I play people dont select it even in random starts or I can just host the games so in that sense its OK.

I couldnt be bothered to talk about tower, mag, etc as my previous comments make it obvious what I would say

By a long time sponsor of this game
?

Edited November 22, 2018 by Reano

[[CC] RaVaGe]

On 11/21/2018 at 5:09 PM, LeOwNzAll said:

Some players can already beat Yuri as Allied or Sov. So if you downgrade Yuri (it's the case), it will be even easier for them.

Yes, they can and it's not always a 100% win rate. You're speaking as if I made Yuri a lot weaker, which is not the case, I've played the new balanced changes against many top players as Yuri and won against both Allied & Soviet.

Why is it that Allied vs Allied, Soviet vs Soviet, Soviet vs Allied games usually average around 4-8 minutes?
Yet vs Yuri games average above 10 minutes almost always, I mostly see 12-16 minute games against Yuri, that's twice to 3x as long.
This factor alone is a clear evidence of Yuri being overpowered.

Also each of the players playing as Yuri usually never stand a chance playing as Soviet or Allied, why is that?

 

Quote

This patch makes Yuri's entire army more micro intensive and

forces the Yuri player to put more thought into each action. = > ????

--> What i see from Iraq players, it's spamming Rhino and some fodders. What i see from Allied players it's spamming grizzly + rockeeters.

Some good allied tech, then combine mirage+prism and BF that's a pretty good thing.

What i see from Yuri players it's making gat/mag/MM/disc.

If you want to put more micro/thought, change iraq.

 

Iraq is a simple macro side, Allied is a complex macro side, Yuri is a complex micro side.
They don't all need to be the same. Playing as either of the mentioned factions changes the opposing faction's play style respectively.

The new changes make Yuri less about 2 gats, 1 mag, 1 mm, spam CTRL+SHIFT to auto mag and halt entire armies of 20 units upward.
You actually have to think weather you have the time to make a mag or a mm or should you make a chaos drone with a psi tower instead or rather lashers behind a gattling tower with a few brutes or yuri clones all the options are there.

Sure, some of the changes need fine-tuning to make sure all the options are viable.

 

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Initiate are more expansive than conscript but less resistant. GI's are better (more resistant and can deploy).

I don't know what is the power of GI's in garrison, but the only interesant thing for initiate is the garrison. So it has to be better then GI's. Or make it lower price ? faster ?more resistant?

 

Initiates have a stronger walking firepower than all of the other infantry, they don't need to deploy to make use of it either.
Infact, initiate rushing is the most powerful infantry rush in the game.

The garrison damage is the same as GI now, which is quite high, still.

 

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be careful, spamming brute (cloning vat) could be a pretty good tactic.

I tested this out, it's quite good until a desolator, seal or Tanya comes along.
This keeps the brute useful in late game as well.

 

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It's a part of Micro. You have to shoot, go back, same for deso, deploy go back. If you want more micro, let it as it is.

In your case there is no more micro.

CnC is "Easy to play, hard to master"

 

Actually no, the deso walks, takes one shot, deso is half hp, virus is at the edge of the radiation, gets low health and goes back, deso auto heals and the sovs have their super easy deso comfort.

 

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Slave miner can't be sold as Ref. Ref cost 2000-300$ selling so 1700. That's why miner slave are cheaper than ref.

Refineries sell for 300, because you pay for the miner too. Also slave miners move and you won't need to keep making them for new ore patches as you expand, you just move them, that's a very good deal!

 

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Slave miner are the slowest in the game. Allied miners can chrono but weakest. Soviet miner their speed is as allied speed but more resistant. Slave miner the slowest but the more resistant. It's logical, as slave miner can slave far, it can be very weak, even now with 2000 HP.

Both the Allied & Soviet miners have 1000 health and the same armour type, the Soviet War Miner has high storage capacity compared to the Chrono Miner.
Before Yuri players would 'mindlessly' send their Slave miners across the map to gem patches, knowing that the opponents won't make so many tanks against Yuri. The slave miner is moving refinery and already has 250hp more than other miners.

 

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It will slow down the early game for Yuri. If Yuri goes for 1 miner from WF, vs a Sov/Allied/Yuri rush (Rhino/lashers/grizzly) he will be directly dead. Now, as Sov/Allied/Yuri, you can stop a guy if he does not make miner from WF. I have some doubt you could with this changement.

You'll find that making an early chaos drone or a few Brutes will easily counter that and that most Allied & Soviet players are faced with this same dilemma when making a miner from factory. You're going to need to practice your brutes and chaos drones, which you can make in advance before making miners actually, they are that good.

 

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When your miners are going too far, you need to protect them. MM for example. If both gattling/miner can't shoot a drone. You can't stay a all army in each patch of ore, and in your base, and in attack.

Also to see if drones can kill more than one slave. Slave can take 150$ right ? If drones can kill 2-3 slave, you will slow down yuri economy by just spamming drone, during this time you can tech up.

 

Then you should not send or allow your miners to go too far, the Soviet and Allied need to manage their miners at all times for same reason, but Yuri shouldn't?

You can use Initiates, gattling tanks, disks, gattling cannons (really good value now) to counter drones, from my testing it was obvious that drones are only slightly more effective against Yuri now.

 

Lasher Tank

• Reduced Lasher Tank Build time by 20%.

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Be careful, as lashers are better than grizzly (rate of fire is better), if they build faster, combined with Brute 300$, you could see so horrible rush or spam LASHERS+Brute. More efficient than grizzly/rhino+fodders.  If you want more micro, it's not the good way.

Actually the rate of fire is exactly the same except the grizzly bullet flies slower. Which is more likely to make it miss shots against fast moving units.
You'll find that GI backing up grizzly tear through lashers quite easily.

 

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I dont know the comparison between Sentry/Bunker and Gatling canon after the reducing, but gattling canon shoot longer, in AIR, and can shoot more powerful when the machine gun is at top. It can be a bit strong.

 

The damage against heavy armour is now more comparable to a sentry gun now.

 

 

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Drone can be stopped by IFV engi for allied. By going back with rhino for sov. For yuri you would need 2 gattling, or 1 gattling  1 mag to stop only one drone? You need spam gattling to stop drone?

Yes it can be! BUT, the drones will infect the IFV and other units slowly, which makes repairing infected units slow, so if some one is attacking at the same time with tanks the drones will still be able to do their job.

Yet as Yuri, 1 gattling tank can destroy 20 terror drones in a matter of 1-3 seconds. Making 2-3 gattling tanks will allow Yuri players to achieve the same effect however.

 

 

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Be careful, the only patch that Westwood done (1.000 to 1.001) was to decrease the speed of chaos drone.

You could spam it early game and could be terrible. You could see a match one drone for each chaos drone made. Was not very fun lol! And for allied, before Lab (without mirage) a combinaison of drone + lashers was very good...

 

The chaos drone is prone to stopping to shoot, which means units moving away from the drone are highly likely to kill it.
The Yuri player will need to decide the right time to send in the chaos drone or risk losing it and the fight.

 

 

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The only way for a yuri player to stop someone at cliff is magnetron.

For Sov, you have rhino enough strong or IC (or deso). For allied; you can use BF which shoot also on the top of the cliff, or have a big army prism/mirage/BF.

For Yuri it seems you would need a spam lashers + brute in fodder. It's making the game as if you play as sov or allied (before tech); so very basic and sad.

 

You can shoot up those cliffs with Disks and MM instead.

 

 

• Increased Magnetron's  anti structure weapon rate of fire by 10.

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Don't know if it's usefull/necessary ?

Just to keep things consistent and help Yuri attack better.

 

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Mastermind

• Mastermind now overloads when controlling above 2 units instead of  above 3.

MM cost 2 rhinos, and more if you have industrial plant. If it can take only 2 tanks, it's not very cost effective.

• Reduced Mastermind's mind-control weapon rate of fire by 70.

This was a good thing for MM but also his weakness, if you spam gi's/conscripts/flak the MM can be overload very quickly.

As he can control only 2 units, you are maybe trying to make them less weak face spam fodders?

 

Previously Yuri would just make gattling tanks, disks or use his genetic mutator to kill your fodder.
Now Yuri can do the same and use Viruses to counter fodder too. This fodder mechanic was only useful very rarely.

 

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• Increased Mastermind's mind-control weapon range by 1.

Very Very dangerous. MM could mind tanks before they can shoot, including mirage. Now you mirage can shoot without being minded, and rhino you can force to shoot even after being minded.

 

Yet in vanilla game the Mirages completely destroy Masterminds.
Now Mirages will need to attack MM directly or retreat, not camping.
As this made it very difficult for Yuri to attack Allied based in the late game.

Also Mirage can out run MM and harass Yuri from other spots, such as economy.
 

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• Increased Mastermind's health by 100.
• Mastermind can detect disguises of spies and mirage tanks, this makes the Mastermind useful against Allied late game tech.

The match in late game for Yuri is very hard vs Allied. But that's the game. You have to be smarter than the allied to beat. Allied is known in the game as the best army late game. I think this the gameplay of sov/yuri, to stop the allied to tech.

 

Yet Soviets reign almost at all parts of the game thanks to desolators and the iron curtain.
Being smarter than an equally skilled top player will be quite difficult to impossible.

 

 

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Floating Disk

• Reduced Floating Disk's health by 100.

Why ? All Yuri units are weak (lashers/gatling/mag). MM is "ok" but can't attack.

 

You'll find that lashers, gattling tanks and chaos drones are quite useful and that disks are still great for taking out enemy defences, structures and also using their special abilities such as draining power.

 

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• Reduced FLoating Disk's damage to vehicles by 20%.

Why?

 

So Yuri players would stop spamming Disk as a counter for absolutely everything in the late game.
1-4 lashers + mm to kill flak tracks, GGI ifvs just miss their shots when disks move, Yuri can just fly into your base, snipe key structures and move out while the countering units just miss their shots and even end up getting taken out...

 

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• Increased Floating DIsk's weapon range by 1.

Why? They can already shoot by moving.

 

To keep the Disk effective at helping Yuri break through base defences, camping and units on the hill.

 

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• Increased Floating Disk's cost by $250 to $2000.

Now disc cost 3+ flak or 3 IFV. with IP, it cost even more. I don't think they need to be touched.

 

Then tell every Yuri player to stop spamming them, when all they need is 1 disk to drain the power and the game is over (most of the time).

 

 

 

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You are wrong here. It's not a bug. To stop IC drone (or just drone) Both allied and sov has the repair building. It's the "Anti-drone'.

Do you see any players making drone vs Repair IFV or Repair building?  No. You lost you drone 500$ for nothing.

Yuri has nothing. The only  thing it's the grinder, but ppl still doing drone. Yuri get back the money (not full for MM) but lose his unit. As you know that you need 4 times more time to build a MM for a drone it's good deal. The only way to try to "balance" it, it's to get all money from drone.

Yet these Yuri players usually run the economy at an average of 10-12K...
When desolators are not heavily harassing the enconomy, which mind takes a lot of macro to execute effectively.

[XXxPrePxX]

Love the constructive dialogue going on so far. Hopeful that more yuri players explore the options and stay away from attacks like "youre just changing this to avoid andy" which is downright ridiculous. We've known the yuri problems exist for over 13 years now. 

 

On initiates: Their garrison was completely broken prior to this patch. Garrisoned initiates could take out an entire army of tanks within moments and it made city maps or maps with many garrisons unplayable vs. yuri. This one change could make yuri more manageable to face off against on a few more maps.

 

In general, I like what Ravage is doing here. 

 

Also -- I know this patch's intentions are to balance the broken yuri faction, but I wonder if you could throw in the balance of special country specific units in it as well.

Might be a nice option for the FFG players who don't care about the yuri faction, but want to have fun with things like Russia/Cuba/Germany etc.

By making the specific units like Tesla Tanks, Tank Destroyers, Terrorists, Demo trucks, snipers more useful/less costly it could introduce more fun into the FFGs and be a reason to have this patch turned on more frequently.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Ferret
Double post, merged into a singular post

[[CC] RaVaGe]

Grant was strongly against it, yet MustacheX has been flaunting the fact that Grant basically told him that he can add his MX balance changes to a similar patch in the past. His edits include Soviets, Allied & Yuri, I also did have 'conservative' edits to faction specific units and minor edits to Allied & Soviet, all in line of Westwood's style, keeping the simplicity and fun based gameplay. Most players barely noticed the edits in testing because they were so subtle.

This community is so backwards in those terms, that people are more willing to just disagree and plainly just say NO rather than discuss constructively, including the leadership.

Also highly toxic individuals are left to roam the community while anyone taking action against them and when I take the initiative I'm punished like some kid.
The staff below two of the deciding admins don't get much leeway in decision making, not a lot is explained in the way of reasoning either.
I also see a lot of players getting preferential treatment in terms of their bail game stats having removed. When they are meant to lose points for abusing the system.

I'll provide refinement updates to this, but I'm out as staff, not dealing with this bullshit.