TS Viewpoint Conflict

[Hungry Mike]

On 4/12/2020 at 5:46 AM, steelc0ck said:

I haven't heard of much beta testing with average players, if there was then I suspect you would see that average GDI players would have high difficulty breaking a vet Nod bunk due to lack of game sense or control.

I have tears in my eyes. Poor GDI isnt so op anymore! GDI has nader bonus in early game, but if your rush fail: Just build tits, thats your next bonus. If this fails, then just pump bombers or send 2 disses, if this fails, just wait a bit and do it again. Lol. Now the cards have changed, and thats a very good thing.

7 hours ago, Tibermach said:

vet is definitely a different game than TS... is xwis really still going

You play only few times. I expect you would have played much more, if the old ts settings are of such high importance for you. But you didnt.

 

On 4/12/2020 at 7:34 AM, Weaponx said:

Also another fact, 90% of the players play gdi, due to the fact that not only is nod hard (even on vet) but it just is unbalanced to start with. (Until the vet minor fixes has tried to fix the issue).

 

Anyway you all have the option to not play vet, no need to convince anyone.

100 % true! But they want to force us to play with the old settings, because they are egoists, who just want to WIN and exploit the things, they are used to play with; and now they are ANGRY  

On 4/12/2020 at 5:46 AM, steelc0ck said:

However an unfinished game de facto doesn't mean that the balancing was wrong - it just means that some parts were unfinished.

I heard many RA or TD players refused to play TS because of its bad balance. And it had a bad balance. How do you want to attack as Nod? You can only engi, cc or later banshee attack. But GDI can just build rpgs, engies or some tits, case closed. Bike rush is easy bomber food and stealth tanks require too much time to micro them. So you are stuck to bunker. And the original CC wasnt a bunker game: We dont play Sim City here! They made bikes so weak, because many poor gdi players in TD had complained before how strong they are, lol. They made Nod so shitty, so GDI nerds could be happy again, after they got traumatized in the first CC. Humble and his men just cleaned up CC TS from the bad influence of GDI hacks!

So: Thank you, Humble, and the others, for your exelent job!
MAKE GDI WEAK AGAIN!  

 

 

[Humble]

5 hours ago, Hungry Mike said:

...MAKE GDI WEAK AGAIN!  

 

 

GDI still OP.

[Hungry Mike]

54 minutes ago, Humble said:

GDI still OP.

Mola mows down anyone

 

[Phenomena]

Make stealth tanks a few $ cheaper so I can hunt harvs
thx.

[Weaponx]

Make titans more expensive  to balance it  just 150 more. 

[Holland]

make time travel possible, so i can prevent myself from typing this message!

[Avesta]

Video Time stamped for relevant content

Enjoy

[Weaponx]

Thats such a joke 5 ticks dieying to 1 bomber, even seen it done to 7 ticks. 

Even they are deployed they would still die, and people call it fair?

Its a fact this would get hotfix WW/Ea still was keeping ts alive.

[Tibermach]

maybe the tick wasn't meant for those engagements ya know.. they have artillery, its a fine balance for two very opposing and differential factions.. trying to make nod like gdi is boring.. and defeats the object.. defeats the maps.. defeats the game.. that's fact

[Weaponx]

2 hours ago, Tibermach said:

maybe the tick wasn't meant for those engagements ya know.. they have artillery, its a fine balance for two very opposing and differential factions.. trying to make nod like gdi is boring.. and defeats the object.. defeats the maps.. defeats the game.. that's fact

...what a useless statement you bring to the table, as for arts they are equally just as useless, and 1 bomber eats them.

No one is making nod like gdi, ticks cant Q and they wont be able to, but their armor should not be this weak, and a tick is suppose to be equivalent to a titan.

Ticks are suppose to lose vs titan, but not by much when deployed. The game haven't been fixed for all bugs and was abandoned before more fixes and balanced could be sent out.  You really honestly think this was how it should have been is just laughable.

Giving them an armor upgrade fixes the issue vs bomber, and that's about it. They still lose to titans even when deployed. 

It will be funny when remastered ts comes out, and they fix all these issues, then what you going to complain about it? lol

10 ticks no time to spread them gets killed by 1 bomber, is not what is attended.

[Avesta]

11 hours ago, Tibermach said:

maybe the tick wasn't meant for those engagements ya know.. they have artillery, its a fine balance for two very opposing and differential factions.. trying to make nod like gdi is boring.. and defeats the object.. defeats the maps.. defeats the game.. that's fact

Maybe they weren't but your suggestion is nothing more than conjecture and a pestering attempt to proclaim whatever the opposite viewpoint of Vet supporters are regardless of absurdity.

It's safe too say that Westwood never intended artillery to be a solution to titans as they were nerfed in Firestorm to have near 0 accuracy vs moving targets. However, Westwood clearly intended for NOD to have a counter for Titans as they chose to use the opportunity to introduce Cyborg Reapers as the solution for the missing unit balance instead of enhancing Tick Tanks to be viable.

Furthermore, Westwood clearly had the goal to make the two factions balanced via making the sides more similar. In Firestorm GDI got an Artilary (Juggernaut) and NOD got a Titan (Cyborg Reaper). These additional units put both factions on even grounds on all map sizes and terrain types. It's what the developers did and the evidence is readily available for anyone who plays on the Firestorm expansion released by Westwood studios original development team. There is 0 evidence or discussion ever where it has been stated that the intention of the developers was to make the game "balanced" in such a way that requires one player to use 5x the micro and unit control while still having to depend on the other player making mistakes in order to be balanced and fair.

Anyone who supports the prospect of the Westwood developers being the only authority to balance change should be advocating for either Tick Tanks to be Equal to a Titan or for the Cyborg Reaper unit to be added as a standard unit outside of Firestorm. This is the path the developers were taking the game prior to project abandonment. The Firestorm expansion pack is hard, irrefutable evidence to this fact. You can't have it both ways unless your only goal and motivation is to sabotage progress and be a pest.

 

 

Time stamped for relevant content

 

 

[Ender_TS]

@all Please stop tryingt to "Fix"  the game and just get some decent connectivity and a computer so that we dont have to play slow motion lagg games.  That would actually make the game better.

[Avesta]

16 minutes ago, Microsoft said:

@all Please stop tryingt to "Fix"  the game and just get some decent connectivity and a computer so that we dont have to play slow motion lagg games.  That would actually make the game better.

Great contribution.. Those are good suggestions for improvement but unfortunately we have 0 control over those factors. So we are instead choosing to focus our efforts on things that we have the ability to correct. 

 

[Weaponx]

Vet should just be implemented on the server, and people should learn to play with it.

[olliegator]

My view on this subject was stated earlier WestWood co left TS in an incomplete state; unit's were not coded properly for their intended design or purpose and had to be tweaked slightly to become effective to even see online pvp play (some units that were already OP or balanced were not even touched) in the Veterinary patch. I spent countless hours/days with Humble testing and balancing units for their intended purpose making sure we could have a completed (balanced) online TS registry that could be geared towards an online ladder system in doing so also patching out any bugs or glitches left by our westwood counterparts in the maps. ETC glitching out of TL terrace, pad glitch etc. these are a few simple bugs that WW left us in online play that goes to show that TS was released early it lingers with beta prototype early release stench and thus it was taken upon some very patient and talented individuals etc Humble, Dan, Funky and many others (Skylegend) to come together & produce TS gold by releasing a balanced TS clan ladder, with said maps included. I can't appreciate myself how many hours these people put into the game and for some individuals to meaninglessly put down the efforts and hard work of many people because they believe they weren't involved in the process or informed enough (when there is a whole registry of the unit values on TS) + discord a track record of Veterinary patches. You know it's see nothing but negative attitudes from people who have nothing to offer themselves to the game. I think you should take the time to thank these people for keeping TS alive, the game you grew up with & love so please stop dividing the TS community and just get good on VET. I own top players on either mode vet or non vet i literally see no difference at all, thanks to the people keeping TS going shout out to my boy ya dig.. If you don't like VET & fps/bug fixes go back to XWIS!!!!

[Ender_TS]

On 4/10/2020 at 4:38 PM, WonderWorm said:

I have always tried to get strong bbg players like ender and rami or miki to come play terrace but they would never come. But now they are getting on more and more since the vet maps bridge the learning gap. And they are getting good at it so you no longer have to kill 30 minutes for a game to start since im seeing more players at night now.

 

 

In this case its not about the map or versions or maps its about the people.  I enjoy playing games with Rami and House and many others.  Now some times we set terraces but also play BBG or Giants or other mod maps.  It also helps that we all have more time since everyone is home lol

 

And everyone knows I was always againts the vet maps lol

Edited May 3, 2020 by Microsoft

[Hungry Mike]

@olliegator If i could give your comment 20 likes, i would do it. Just the pure truth. Instead of complaining, they should honor the work of the ppl you mentioned. You are still free to play your BUG+ maps. But some ppl dont know how to appreciate work or atleast not the work of others.

@Microsoft Yeah, PLA and ALA are a real thing on CncNet. Maybe someday they will get decent internet...

As for your points, @Avesta: Cant agree more. FS shows where they tried to fix it. Prob with FS is: They made disses even stronger, although Reapers can be a good counter unit, but many ppl just dont play FS, so we dont know. And even if they thought its right to let tanks die that easily: Its just a question of fairness and realism, whether 6 tanks (4800 $) should die to one bomber. It ruins the game.

WWs belief that they had to make bikes as weak as possible shows they arent Jesus either. In TD, GDI players had complained about the strength of bikes, and WW thought they should "fix" that in TS (although they arent op there). Result: A mostly useless unit for attacks (ez bomber food), only decent for diss def or harv harass, but rarely used.  Even scouting is hard due to their extreme vulnerability. This was once the main Nod unit, the symbol of Nod: Fast and deadly. Now its weak as $hit. So: We should look into what is right and what is wrong more than what some human brains thought or didnt think to be right or wrong.

But let us all not forget: TS IS A WONDERFUL GAME WE ALL LOVE. Its soooooo fun and good . So keep enjoying it as much as my Arnolds do!

 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Hungry Mike

[Avesta]

I’d like to point out, for anyone who doesn’t yet know who to take seriously or not. That this thread was started on April 9th and on May 1st I entered a game and viewed a conversation where the thread starter was discussing Vet with other haters and one of his comments was “I was never asked about my opinions”. Despite having posted this private conversation (without permission) in the middle of which shows him being asked for opinions... To which he gave the same response that he has in every other encounter over the last several years “I don’t want anything to do with it”. 

Fact of the matter is simply that the extremely small minority of people (5 total now that Windows has joined the club) who oppose the Vet patch and fair maps all have nothing to say about why or how any of it is a problem. 

The only arguments ever put forth are that the original developers didn’t authorize it therefore it’s not valid. And then the extreme haters that assert that the game was not meant to fair and that you are supposed to make up for balance by requiring that your opponent make mistakes and not be as skilled as you. Neither argument provides any suggestion that the patch and maps don’t equalize and improve game play. These people opposing Vet are simple minded stubborn elitists who are taking their stance out of bitterness and resentment. It is very clear by reading the private message corpsmakr posted that his problem is not with the patch itself but a personal problem with the individual who made it. 

TS is our game, the devs didn’t have enough passion for it to finish it after it stopped making money. The remasters are not coming out of passion but merely another attempt to make money (nothing wrong with that as the whole point of a business is to make money but nevertheless it is what it is). They don’t care about you or the status of authority you hold them to. If they did they would get involved with cncnet and help with the project. If it wasn’t for community members taking over the WOL servers would be long gone and none of us would have anywhere to play. Show some respect for the people who have put in 100x the effort and hours that the Westwood team did to give us the content we have now. I’d be willing to bet that @dkeeton alone has put in more time and effort for this game than the entire Westwood team combined. Thanks to him and others the frequency of game errors is a tiny fraction of what it used to be, server lag and delay is gone, cheating has been virtually abolished, the game is more logical and balanced that ever before, and there are dozens of maps available to play besides terrace and forest fires in which we’re only ever popular do to being the only maps that were even close to being fair for multiplayer games. Anyone who throws shade on this has serious mental health problems. 

Obviously we want more things like clans and 2v2 rank system but the hate and vitriol of progress blockers put a huge dent in the motivation for future effort and support. 

[c0rpsmakr]

Ollie, negative attitudes from people who have nothing to offer to the game, sorry what? Who has been literally the only person taking brand new players from absolute scratch and going through the process of teaching them, including yourself, for longer than YOU have even been able to 1 shot with a disruptor? How many topics have I created offering my advice and allowing my games to be spectated so that players like yourself have more people in the long run to be able to play with? What you and most seem to completely disregard or haven't seen is that on MANY occasions, I stated that TS isn't completely balanced and I would have ideas for my own improvements, but it would be my own modded version of TS for others to try and not force it upon the increasingly small player base that exists. That is what none of you seem to comprehend. This is the absolute last time I will repeat myself and have anybody cherry pick things I've said and take them out of context to make me and others out to be the enemy of perceived progress. Do any of you honestly think that the only person that cared enough to put over 14 years into training others and helping foster the competition of this game really doesn't want things to get better, seriously? 

 

"These people opposing Vet are simple minded stubborn elitists who are taking their stance out of bitterness and resentment. It is very clear by reading the private message corpsmakr posted that his problem is not with the patch itself but a personal problem with the individual who made it. "

 

Um excuse you? The ENTIRE reason personal problems exist between me and those people is BECAUSE of this mandate on all competitive play. Just because I don't agree with with how those people think they're helping, that makes me a hater, nasty, elitist, foul burden to the game, what kind of f*cksh*t is that? It's clear that you're going to keep drawing up inaccurate conclusions about me and my stance on this, and I won't subject myself to any more of this circular, pointless discussion. Enjoy.

Edited May 4, 2020 by c0rpsmakr

[amokk]

22 hours ago, Weaponx said:

Vet should just be implemented on the server, and people should learn to play with it.

I have loved it like it is for 20 years.

you can make maps with whatever changes you like, so you can play what  > you like. and I can play what >  I like.

How is that not acceptable to you???

Don't try and force it down my throat, you selfish f-n tyrants

Edited May 4, 2020 by amokk

[Avesta]

1 hour ago, c0rpsmakr said:

Ollie, negative attitudes from people who have nothing to offer to the game, sorry what? Who has been literally the only person taking brand new players from absolute scratch and going through the process of teaching them, including yourself, for longer than YOU have even been able to 1 shot with a disruptor? How many topics have I created offering my advice and allowing my games to be spectated so that players like yourself have more people in the long run to be able to play with? What you and most seem to completely disregard or haven't seen is that on MANY occasions, I stated that TS isn't completely balanced and I would have ideas for my own improvements, but it would be my own modded version of TS for others to try and not force it upon the increasingly small player base that exists. That is what none of you seem to comprehend. This is the absolute last time I will repeat myself and have anybody cherry pick things I've said and take them out of context to make me and others out to be the enemy of perceived progress. Do any of you honestly think that the only person that cared enough to put over 14 years into training others and helping foster the competition of this game really doesn't want things to get better, seriously? 

 

"These people opposing Vet are simple minded stubborn elitists who are taking their stance out of bitterness and resentment. It is very clear by reading the private message corpsmakr posted that his problem is not with the patch itself but a personal problem with the individual who made it. "

 

Um excuse you? The ENTIRE reason personal problems exist between me and those people is BECAUSE of this mandate on all competitive play. Just because I don't agree with with how those people think they're helping, that makes me a hater, nasty, elitist, foul burden to the game, what kind of f*cksh*t is that? It's clear that you're going to keep drawing up inaccurate conclusions about me and my stance on this, and I won't subject myself to any more of this circular, pointless discussion. Enjoy.

There’s nothing at all circular about this discussion. It’s a lopsided landslide of support for VET and then 0 substance commentary from you. There is not even a debate going on here in order to be circular. Not you or a single person who has commented in opposition has made a single example of something they find illogical, unreasonable, or broken. You just make blanket generalizations and accuse people of forcing it upon you in which your protesting is probably the only reason it’s still a reduced to being a map feature.

Instead of being rude and condescending  why don’t you give us all your response to the videos I linked? The way you respond with such intense aggravation suggests that this is something that really upsets you and if that’s the case you should have some kind of argument as to why tick tanks should be so vulnerable. Otherwise I don’t understand how you are holding onto the position of making it so that them being a usable unit with a purpose as merely optional. 

Nobody is going to think less of you if you come around and admit you have been holding this position out of pure stubbornness. In fact it I would find it to be admirable to be able to receive information and adjust your outlook based on new information. 

furthermore, the QM ladder is cncnets, not WOLs. And they can establish parameters as they see fit. Many or all of which you should be grateful for as you’ve been able to win multiple months on it purely on the merit of your ability to win games. 

You're arguments over the years have been proven irrefutably wrong and your now reduced to the only stance that no one can take from you in that the updates weren’t made by Westwood. You don’t even suggest anymore that any of the updates are bad. So with literally 100% support that the changes are an improvement to the game you are suggesting that we should not implement them simply because it improves and therefore “changes” the game.

Even you must be struggling to hold onto your establishment at this point? 

The only circle going on here is that we are all wanting to make the game better and you are wanting to keep the game broken because that’s the way it was released. Then after that gets drawn out with crayon for you as being absurd you retreat into saying it’s fine to make the mods but don’t force it on people in the competition. I hate to upset you over this but competition is the most critical aspect in which the game needs to be balanced and fair. And balance/fairness must be forced on a system of competition.

Your argument is no different from suggesting that people should have a 100 yard dash foot race on uneven dirt grounds where 1 persons path goes slightly uphill.. And should remain on that surface even though someone made a perfectly flat paved surface for them to run on. Just because that’s the way they had to do it prior to a evenly balanced track to run on being developed.

You are wrong and there is no circle about it.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Avesta

[Hungry Mike]

3 hours ago, c0rpsmakr said:

What you and most seem to completely disregard or haven't seen is that on MANY occasions, I stated that TS isn't completely balanced and I would have ideas for my own improvements, but it would be my own modded version of TS for others to try and not force it upon the increasingly small player base that exists

Thats just absurd. Noone forces you to play with Vet. (Mola's comment was just trolling). And you still dont say what these "ideas" are.

@c0rpsmakr: Your entire first 2/3 of your post is about "I". I, I, I... You are a hero. You let anyone in, lol. Its laughable, considering the fact, that you ban me constantly for my political view (and i gave you my love back in return). Dont be so personal, stick to the facts. The facts are: You said this:

Quote

but to completely overhaul the game in the way you see fit with input from a handfull of people, and force people who want to play the ladder to do so on your perspective of how the game should be is quite fucked up

This doesnt sound like appretiation or respect at all lol. Where is one good word from you to the guys, who made the Vet Patch? Noone forces you to do anything. Play what you want. You just want to force others to play your way, thats the truth. And if someone asks you for a reasonable conversation, you just imply they are too stupid to listen to your holy words ("i dont repeat myself").

You just dont argue, as Avesta said: Where is one reasonable argument against the Vet Patch? Please, tell us. @Avestas comment should be highlighted, because there is just no argument from your side.

Its NOT that i cant understand your principle point of view at all. There were guys, who made a Mod in TD. I was against it, but then i saw: I was a hypocrite in this regard: I am for freedom and free market, and games are there to have joy. If they maximize their joy by making and playing their mod version of TD, its fine, as long as they dont force me to play it; or as long as noone else plays the old version, if its not just a bugfix (which clearly it wasnt).

So: I think the old TS shouldnt "die". The Vet supporters should still include the No-Vet-Faction to the community and offer them to play Vanila TS games, too. But thats about it. Other than the TD Mod, the TS Vet Mod mostly just changed extremely unfair things (1 bomber kills 8 tanks; CC can kill more than 2 tits; Arnolds are a better unit, but not op), while they tried to make TD a completely different game. TS is still TS, only bugfree. You can still diss rush, tit rush, etc. Therefore, the Patch is a success, and not a whole different game.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Hungry Mike

[c0rpsmakr]

Firstly you haven't said a single credible thing any time that you've spoken in the entirety that you've been posting on this forum, or in game to be frank, as you always complain about "bugs" when you lose even though there aren't any of these so-called "bugs" that you speak of, and you just refuse to accept that you're not playing optimally, along with just having a horrible attitude and skewed game perspective, which is why I never even give you the time of day with a response, but for the sake of further clarifying a very easily understood concept, I'll bite: 

YES, it does force people to play the game the way they want it for anybody who wants to play the ladder, every single map is a vet map, every single one. I've even asked for half vet/half regular maps to be brought to the table but that idea was rejected. So, again, and for the final time, YES IT DOES.

If I cared a single iota of what you thought, some random new person that has 0 knowledge of the history of this community/game aside from the... what, 1/maybe 2 years you've shown up to say things that are twisted and factually inaccurate, I would go  back through the forums and pull out quotes of me thanking those who are involved with fixing ACTUAL bugs/glitches, such as the old jj bug, and giving the rest of us a place to play this 20+ year old game.

My "2/3 mememe" post was pointing out how it's illogical that I'm somehow hurting TS when I've been the main one helping out the community for decades longer than those like you who show up to post nonsense. Consider this the only time you'll get attention from me.

Edited May 4, 2020 by c0rpsmakr

[amokk]

could it be implemented with a tick box in the settings the host can check apply the vet patch ??   like firestorm or not?

i suspect you are nowhere near to a final set of changes though.........and editing maps would let each play as they like, until

1 hour ago, Hungry Mike said:

If they maximize their joy by making and playing their mod version of TD, its fine, as long as they dont force me to play it;

Hear Hear!  the thousandth time i have said this>>> both ways more ways, not one way Play anyway you like.

  >>  I am as glad that you can play your way as that I can play my way!  <<  feel free have fun with it. 

 

PS> and not just what you like or think or want on the ladder,   the thousandth time this has had to be discussed. The map selection should be a representative selection of what the whole community plays ! ! !   Not the subset of them you altered to suit your tastes.

If you cant hang on the maps the community has been playing for the last 20 years,  > you suck >  .

spread out your tanks so one bomber doesn't kill them all, dummies..

Edited May 4, 2020 by amokk

[Hungry Mike]

1 hour ago, c0rpsmakr said:

as you always complain about "bugs" when you lose

Some ppl blame their allies, other blame their opponents: I blame bugs (idiot units for example) . Of all three options of blaming, i think that this is the smoothest way (most of the times i even say "wp" to my opponents, when i get my typical bug-meltdown - Ask Mola!). I am just ANGRY, as we all are, when we lose. Sometimes tho i really am right about bugs... idiot harvs for instance. And i know that i dont play optimally in TS, and i dont care. I play this game for 2,5 years for fun, we can play 1vs1 every time on Td if you want. Lol. I would love to see where you would stay in 2,5 years mostly playing Mod games in TS.

1 hour ago, c0rpsmakr said:

YES, it does force people to play the game the way they want it for anybody who wants to play the ladder,

1) Who forces you to play the ladder? 2) Ladder is only an unimportant part of the game, you can still play what you want 3) If they would allow Vanila maps, guys like you would only play those maps 4) I asked for the option for guys like you to play those things, but i can understand, that they dont do it (points 1-3).

1 hour ago, c0rpsmakr said:

would go  back through the forums and pull out quotes of me thanking those who are involved with fixing ACTUAL bugs/glitches, such as the old jj bug, and giving the rest of us a place to play this 20+ year old game.

My "2/3 mememe" post was pointing out how it's illogical that I'm somehow hurting TS when I've been the main one helping out the community for decades longer than those like you who show up to post nonsense. Consider this the only time you'll get attention from me.

Me, me, me, me....  When did you get a Noble Prize for your genius? They fixed: 1) 8-Tanks-die-to-1-bomber-bug 2) CC-Q-Tit-Bug 3) Banshee/Bomber-gets-attacked-by-sam-after-being-built-bug and so on.

As for your personal attacks: We all gonna die, hence  no insult or thought of someone else has any meaning for itself; and certainly my duty before the LORD doesnt include getting offended lol. X isnt right or wrong, because person P said it. X is right because of a objective logical reason Y.

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Hungry Mike