Is Rhino vs Grizzly (or Lasher) situation balanced?

[ReaperAA]

Is Rhino vs Grizzly (or Lasher) situation balanced? If not, then how would you balance this.

I personally think that Rhino tanks pretty much outclass Grizzlies(and lashers for that matter) mostly due to their range advantage (5 vs 5.75) and also due to damage advantage per cost (65 damage per shot for 700 cost of Grizzly vs 90 damage per shot for 900 cost of Rhino). And I think this is one of the 2 main reasons why Soviets beat Allies in most pro vs pro games.

My personal balance/tweak idea would be to increase the range of Grizzlies/Lashers to match that of Rhinos (from 5 to 5.75) and also increase the damage per shot from 65 to 70.

[McPwny]

rhinos are unbalanced which is obvious from the fact that the only counter to rhinos is build rhinos yourself. even if you tweaked the firepower/cost ratio of grizzlies, there would still be the disadvantage of needing to get more tanks in firing range at the same time to make it work. 

if rhinos were slower it would be more ideal, but i can hear the metafags autistic screeching at the notion of having to find a new way to play already.

[ReaperAA]

19 minutes ago, McPwny said:

rhinos are unbalanced which is obvious from the fact that the only counter to rhinos is build rhinos yourself. even if you tweaked the firepower/cost ratio of grizzlies, there would still be the disadvantage of needing to get more tanks in firing range at the same time to make it work.

This is true. Rhinos would still beat Grizzlies in larger numbers. However now Grizzlies would at least have a fair game against Rhinos in small amounts.

 

20 minutes ago, McPwny said:

if rhinos were slower it would be more ideal

 Maybe, but then Rhinos (just like Apocs) would get utterly wrecked by late game Allied units (Battle Fortress, mirage tanks etc.). So I think their speed should stay the same. They are already very slightly slower than Grizzles right now.

 

23 minutes ago, McPwny said:

i can hear the metafags autistic screeching at the notion of having to find a new way to play already.

LOL this made my day. This is one of the main reasons why I am slightly hesitating in making threads like these.

[McPwny]

you arent wrong about the battlefortress thing. though battlefortresses themselves are big chonky bois that are faster than apocolypses and with guardian GI's have an obscene range of 8 x 2=16. times that by five, add a 1.2x damage modifier, and let it shoot backwards while moving, and you have the second most egregious fault in game balance. one that blatantly enough, can only be countered with rhino spam. making them also slower would be common sense, but this is just wishful thinking.

[Ezer_2000]

On 8/6/2020 at 7:46 PM, ReaperAA said:

Is Rhino vs Grizzly (or Lasher) situation balanced? If not, then how would you balance this.

Why do you think this should be balanced?

[ReaperAA]

3 hours ago, Ezer_2000 said:

Why do you think this should be balanced?

Ask yourself, why do most players in 1 vs 1 match play as Soviets?

[rocker219]

They function differently. Rhinos are meant to beat grizzlies. You can’t really compare them from a balance perspective. In red alert 2 they built a lot faster, so you could try to out tank a sov  about mid Game and win. But ultimately you had to tech to win. 
 

in yuris they built slower so you were more forced to tech. That’s why I like robot tanks cause they built at red alert 2 grizzly speed and I could  take them on water. 
 

Edited August 20, 2020 by rocker219

[ReaperAA]

11 hours ago, rocker219 said:

They function differently. Rhinos are meant to beat grizzlies. You can’t really compare them from a balance perspective. In red alert 2 they built a lot faster, so you could try to out tank a sov  about mid Game and win. But ultimately you had to tech to win. 
 

in yuris they built slower so you were more forced to tech. That’s why I like robot tanks cause they built at red alert 2 grizzly speed and I could  take them on water. 
 

I understand what you are trying to convey. Soviets have better early game (because of Rhinos being simply better per cost compared to Grizzlies) and to balance it, Allies have better late game (due to BFs and Mirages being more useful than Apocs).

But that, in my opinion, is actually a big problem with the balance. This means that on small (1 vs 1) map, Soviets are better as games usually are decided before things go to late game. While Allies are better on very large maps.

In a very well balanced game (like in say Starcraft), all factions are roughly even in power at all stages of the game.

Edited August 20, 2020 by ReaperAA

[[CC] RaVaGe]

On 8/20/2020 at 5:30 PM, ReaperAA said:

Soviets have better early game (because of Rhinos being simply better per cost compared to Grizzlies) and to balance it, Allies have better late game (due to BFs and Mirages being more useful than Apocs).

That used to be the belief, but top pros don't even need to stop making Rhinos, ever, Soviets still dominate all stages of the game thanks to the cost efficient Rhino Tank.

[rocker219]

18 hours ago, RaVaGe said:

That used to be the belief, but top pros don't even need to stop making Rhinos, ever, Soviets still dominate all stages of the game thanks to the cost efficient Rhino Tank.

That’s not true at all. Soviet are strong but not as powerful as people make them out to be

[[CC] RaVaGe]

5 hours ago, rocker219 said:

That’s not true at all. Soviet are strong but not as powerful as people make them out to be

I see you speak out of all knowing wisdom and experience, because it's true that only 95% of the competitive player base plays Iraq (Soviets) and all they do is spam Rhino tanks in every circumstance oh, and don't forget the Iron Curtain.

Soviets are too efficient in the economy, production, anti-air and superweapons department.

You're just an stubborn old RA2 Allied player, A.K.A people in denial.

[a1nthony]

Soviets are easier to play and stronger. Allies rely on misdirection and speed.  Rhinos are almost a tier better than grizzlies in my opinion. For example, I feel pretty safe splitting 3 rhinos to attack parts of an enemies base, but if I’m not pressuring hard with other units or something I wouldn’t dare split 3 grizzlies by themselves. Now I understand allied infantry  counter this but the main OP is the desolator. I suppose what I’m getting at is it’s hard to just compare rhino to grizzly without bringing up other units from their faction, so I wouldn’t balance them based on tank vs tank unless you do that for every unit 1by1 on the tech tree. I don’t have an answer how to balance it, but I do have an idea that may spark creativity. What if a gi in yellow/red health spawns after each grizzly is destroyed?  Just random thoughts

[reflexion]

On 8/23/2020 at 10:05 AM, RaVaGe said:

Soviets are too efficient in the economy, production, anti-air and superweapons department.

You're just an stubborn old RA2 Allied player, A.K.A people in denial.

 

In a perfect world, where both sides would be play flawless, Allies is theoretical the strongest fraction, even stronger than soviets. The problem with Allies is, that the perfect control (micro) is not reachable consistent in real. On the other hand, soviets are compared to allies easy to play. You have one main tank which is used in offense, defense, to pressure and so on. For the defense part you have also desolators. In the most cases, nothing more is necessary. Allies needs more units, more micro control, more focus on economy, etc. One minor wrong move can cost the whole game for allies in early and also in late games.

So the value for allies in terms of risk and profit ist far below of soviets. Players who can play allies consistent on a high level are rarely for 20 years on this game.

 

In my opinion, allies are not weaker than sovs, they are more difficult to play and that is the real "balance problem", even for pros. In a theoretical world with perfect gaming the balance would be Yuri > Allies > Sovs. In terms of the handling the balance shifts to Yuri > Sovs >>>> Allies.

[MapDesigner]

On 8/6/2020 at 5:46 PM, ReaperAA said:

My personal balance/tweak idea would be to increase the range of Grizzlies/Lashers to match that of Rhinos (from 5 to 5.75) and also increase the damage per shot from 65 to 70.

You will have to nerf battle fortress, prism tanks, rocketeers, harriers, and remove spies before you buff Allies early game.

On 8/6/2020 at 6:09 PM, McPwny said:

rhinos are unbalanced which is obvious from the fact that the only counter to rhinos is build rhinos yourself.

Grizzlies+ 1spy beat Rhinos IIRC.

On 8/9/2020 at 3:07 PM, ReaperAA said:

Ask yourself, why do most players in 1 vs 1 match play as Soviets?

This game is more about nostalgia than  about balance. If we are talking about balance, there probably are many flows. allies too strong late game and soviets are a bit too strong early game.  Balance, to me, that both factions should have options and do something both early and late game.

On 8/20/2020 at 8:15 AM, rocker219 said:

They function differently. Rhinos are meant to beat grizzlies. You can’t really compare them from a balance perspective.

??????????????????????

You can compare anything you want. You can compare Rhinos vs apoc. You can compare infantries vs tanks. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by MapDesigner

[Tkragon]

Rhinos are meant to be better than grizzlies/lashers. Tweaking them would create a domino effect and you'd need to re-balance the whole game (faction to faction). Could someone do the balancing better than it is now? Maybe. Is it worth the effort? Probably not. Most players will stick to the vanilla balancing. I mean how often do you see people using the existing community Yuri Re-balance? 

Just my 2 cents.

[XGalaxyZ]

3 hours ago, Tkragon said:

Rhinos are meant to be better than grizzlies/lashers. Tweaking them would create a domino effect and you'd need to re-balance the whole game (faction to faction). Could someone do the balancing better than it is now? Maybe. Is it worth the effort? Probably not. Most players will stick to the vanilla balancing. I mean how often do you see people using the existing community Yuri Re-balance? 

Just my 2 cents.

But my favorite youtuber! If we want people to use Underpowered Units. more we gotta buff them. ❤️ For example. If one say played alot of matches. On Online. youll see that Alot of stuff people dont build/use need buffs. Afaik.

[McPwny]

of course they would never change the game even though i know the current cncnet devs hate the meta faggotry of vanilla gameplay, but even if you did tweak the speed/ROT/acceleration of rhinos, they would still absolutely crap on everything but base defenses and battle fortresses head to head, so it should be fine i think. tho i agree with what the other guy said about allies being too stronk late game

[X3M]

I played 3 RA2 games online, I sucked with all factions.
So here is some general information instead:

A balance can be created by having 2 imbalances cancel each other out.
Give and take. If early game belongs to the sovjets and late game to the allieds.
Then all causes need to be changed.
 

[appledrop]

Lasher tanks make good fodder. I wouldn't plan an assault with them as the main damage producer.