Yuri's Revenge Rebalanced 2.0

[cypher]

swimming ivan is awesome.

[xe3]

21 hours ago, NizzyStorm said:

In RA3 the Apoc is also rarely used there apparently. 

IIRC The Soviets absolutely sucked in that game. I only watched a few competitive matches and basically everyone said Allied or those Anime Samurais took a massive steaming pile of shit on them.

 

etc etc etc

Edited June 4, 2021 by xe3

[ReaperAA]

2 hours ago, xe3 said:

IIRC The Soviets absolutely sucked in that game. I only watched a few competitive matches and basically everyone said Allied or those Anime Samurais took a massive steaming pile of shit on them.

Allies are underpowered in RA2, but in RA3, Allies are the OP faction (at least that is how I felt from little of what I played RA3 many years ago)

[Johnny Cage]

Those ideas that you are proposing are excellent, also, you should consider that other infantry can be garrisoned in buildings as tesla trooper soldiers, GI guardian, flak trooper, sniper (it would be great in building). Other idea is like as in RED ALERT 1, the air support of PARABOMS (like spy plane), for the 3 factions. Would Be helpful.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

18 hours ago, Johnny Cage said:

Those ideas that you are proposing are excellent, also, you should consider that other infantry can be garrisoned in buildings as tesla trooper soldiers, GI guardian, flak trooper, sniper (it would be great in building). Other idea is like as in RED ALERT 1, the air support of PARABOMS (like spy plane), for the 3 factions. Would Be helpful.

Already in the works.

[bbglas007]

21 hours ago, Johnny Cage said:

Those ideas that you are proposing are excellent, also, you should consider that other infantry can be garrisoned in buildings as tesla trooper soldiers, GI guardian, flak trooper, sniper (it would be great in building). Other idea is like as in RED ALERT 1, the air support of PARABOMS (like spy plane), for the 3 factions. Would Be helpful.

That's all Ares type stuff - you can do the garrison thing now with modded maps but it wont work the way you'd like it to.
Snipers would only have the same range as gi's ... it's just engine limits. If cncnet had Ares and  .ra2mp extension (thanks McPwny for telling me about this) as well as terrain expansion we'd be on another level

[ReaperAA]

Another suggestion I have is regarding the lack of transport capability of Yuri. Allies have IFVs/Nighthawks and Soviets have Flak Tracks for transporting infantry (especially engineers to distant tech buildings). My suggestion is to have Gattling Tanks be able to have one passenger slot.

This would also open up more strategic options for Yuri by having and unloading Yuri clones near enemy forces

Although, with that being said, in order to balance things out, I would also suggest to slightly reduce the strength of Gattlings from 210 to 200 and test the Gattling+Yuri combo to see if it isn't too powerful.

[Ezer_2000]

@ReaperAA played as Yuri and had a lot of bad luck in trying to steal enemy structure at this weekends. 

[thisfieldisrequired]

I think the idea of a community rebalance is amazing, but I think a lot of the changes are moot because the patches have not put a dent in the core balance issues present in the game. Soviet is still way too strong. Even after the rebalance, the most efficient strategy by far is still rush with rhinos + IC. Siege Choppers are also very good, but I think that's okay; Sov deserves a strong lategame siege tool too and Apocs are still generally not worth it.

The Sov early game is still busted due to the raw power of Rhinos and the Sov economy. Adjusting the Tesla Tank won't matter if Sov never needs to build anything else to compete in the late game. Nobody's gonna build Tank Destroyers. Mirages, Prisms, and BFs are great, but when Sov players play correctly these units are not as good to the equivalent investment they put into Rhinos, they require way more micro, are more expensive, and don't come out fast enough. And what's the point of a balance patch if it doesn't meaningfully address the core balance issue that has always persisted in RA2? 

I know this might not be a popular viewpoint since people have been playing under the established order of Rhino spam meta for like 20 years now...but what if we tried making Rhinos slightly worse? Or make Grizzlys not shit? 

[ReaperAA]

Another suggestion and this time regarding the Rocketeers. Rocketeers are fairly strong in AvA, okayish in AvY and pretty weak in AvS.

The suggestion is to change Rocketeer armor from none to flak. This change in armor makes zero difference in AvA (as all Allied AA weapon warheads deal equal damage to none and flak armor), a slight difference in AvY and makes the most difference in AvS (no longer a single flak track destroying a dozen rocketeer with ease).

But even with this change, the Soviet AA is still generally the strongest AA against Rocketeers (only that the difference isn't as huge anymore).

Edited June 18, 2021 by ReaperAA

[XGalaxyZ]

On 5/31/2021 at 6:51 PM, ReaperAA said:

That's it? I think you should go one step further and suggest devs to remove Battle fortress, Magnetrons and Masterminds, so that nothing from the Allied and Yuri's side should stand in the way of Rhino Spam. 

 But. One should know That! HUNGRY YURI BRUTE SPAMMERS! Always WIN! Over Rhino Tank Spammers! ❤️  Since once someone spams! Too much hungry yuri brutes! The weak soviet and allied factions! Can never stop! Hungry Yuri Brutes! ❤️ Since they are so Overpowered! and awesome unit! to use!  

[ReaperAA]

On 6/18/2021 at 5:11 AM, thisfieldisrequired said:

I think the idea of a community rebalance is amazing, but I think a lot of the changes are moot because the patches have not put a dent in the core balance issues present in the game. Soviet is still way too strong.

I partially disagree with not putting a dent in the core balance. It's true that Soviets are still a bit strong in early game and the Allied vs Yuri is still imbalanced. But I have noticed some Allied players doing really well in the ladder. StrategyMST (the current 1st ranked player in the ladder as of this date) has been lately using America as his main faction.

The power plant change cost reduction is probably the biggest improvement as it allows Allies to reach War Factory, Rader, Battle Lab at the same time as Soviets and Yuri while also saving resources.

 

On 6/18/2021 at 5:11 AM, thisfieldisrequired said:

Nobody's gonna build Tank Destroyers. Mirages, Prisms, and BFs are great, but when Sov players play correctly these units are not as good to the equivalent investment they put into Rhinos, they require way more micro, are more expensive, and don't come out fast enough. And what's the point of a balance patch if it doesn't meaningfully address the core balance issue that has always persisted in RA2? 

Tank Destroyers are actually pretty good now in YRR (a fair bit better than Grizzles when dealing with Rhino spam) and they are also pretty decent in late game when combined with prism tanks.

 

On 6/18/2021 at 5:11 AM, thisfieldisrequired said:

I know this might not be a popular viewpoint since people have been playing under the established order of Rhino spam meta for like 20 years now...but what if we tried making Rhinos slightly worse? Or make Grizzlys not shit? 

Well, actually I had been working on a private custom balance mod where apart from all the changes present in YRR, I also added some more changes like I gave Grizzlies range of 5.75 (same as Rhinos). This brings Grizzlies a bit closer to Rhino level while still keeping Rhinos slightly better. I also changed Rocketeer armor from none to flak, which means that no longer a dozen Rocketeers would get annihilated by a single flak track and Soviets would have to invest slightly more in AA.

I feel that these changes make Allies pretty much almost on par with Soviets in early game.

 

Another change I did is bringing IC and Chronosphere balance closer. Chronosphere and IC have same timer in my mod (6 minutes in game) instead of 7 mins for Chrono and 5 mins for IC. Also I increased cost of Nuclear Power Plant from 1000 to 1500 so that Allied and Soviet reach their respective SWs at roughly the same time. These changes I feel balance the SW late game very well.

 

As for Allied vs Yuri, I increased Robot Tanks health from 180 to 200 (just enough to allow them to survive 1 more hit from Lashers) and also reduced Gattling Tank health from 210 to 200 (allows Black Eagles to 1-shot them and mirage tanks to 2-shot them). Also I have kept Lasher's range at 5.0 which means that Grizzlies have a range advantage over them. These changes probably won't make Allied vs Yuri completely balanced, but I feel that they would really help improve balance without disrupting the core feel of the game.

 

There are some more changes in it but I haven't listed all of them. If you want, I can post the current version of my balance mod (along with the changes) here.

Edited June 21, 2021 by ReaperAA

[Ezer_2000]

@ReaperAA You seems never used grizzlies + GGI IFV. There's no problem with grizzlies power.

Your problem might be you trying to play allied faction as a soviet. Hence that trying to buff allies. I told you that before, but seems you didn't get the point.

[Ezer_2000]

On 5/25/2021 at 9:32 PM, ReaperAA said:

I am actually a Soviet player.

On 5/26/2021 at 9:54 PM, Ezer_2000 said:

because you are suck at playing Allied side.

On 5/26/2021 at 9:55 PM, ReaperAA said:

More assumptions. Please continue making yourself look like a fool

  

[ReaperAA]

1 hour ago, Ezer_2000 said:

@ReaperAA You seems never used grizzlies + GGI IFV. There's no problem with grizzlies power.

Your problem might be you trying to play allied faction as a soviet. Hence that trying to buff allies. I told you that before, but seems you didn't get the point.

Firstly, I am not trying to play Allies in Soviet style. I only increased the range of Grizzlies. With my modification, Rhinos still beat Grizzlies cost to cost (7 Rhinos with cost of 6300 will still beat 9 Grizziles). I buffed Rocketeer armor to slow the early game Rhino spam and allow Rocketeers to harass more effectively. If I was playing Allied in Soviet style, I wouldn't have buffed Rocketeers and instead just buffed Grizziles even more to make them equal cost for cost.

 

Secondly, GGI IFV is usually not worth it against Rhinos for the amount of micro required. GGI IFV are only really useful against Yuri (when dealing with Floating Disc)

Edited June 21, 2021 by ReaperAA

[thisfieldisrequired]

10 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

Firstly, I am not trying to play Allies in Soviet style. I only increased the range of Grizzlies. With my modification, Rhinos still beat Grizzlies cost to cost (7 Rhinos with cost of 6300 will still beat 9 Grizziles). I buffed Rocketeer armor to slow the early game Rhino spam and allow Rocketeers to harass more effectively. If I was playing Allied in Soviet style, I wouldn't have buffed Rocketeers and instead just buffed Grizziles even more to make them equal cost for cost.

 

Secondly, GGI IFV is usually not worth it against Rhinos for the amount of micro required. GGI IFV are only really useful against Yuri (when dealing with Floating Disc)

Good shit dude. I don't really like the whole "sov early game, allies late game" balancing act and I think it's questionable design in an otherwise amazing and nuanced RTS. Disparities between factions is okay, it's what makes them unique, but the differences are too much in RA2. Your changes sound like they're healthy and I hope the devs of the CNCnet community balance patch are thinking along the same lines. The CNCnet guys are doing a great job with the community patch and I hope they continue to iterate, because sadly without them there's no real chance of meaningful balance changes having impact across the general RA2 community. 

Bringing up micro difficulty is a great point. Again, it's totally okay that one faction is more difficult to micro than the other, but the disparity should not be as stark as it is now. Right now, Allies have to juggle WAY more micro...and still end up losing (usually) to the sheer simplicity and raw power of spamming of an entry level basic tank that is so strong it crowds out higher tech level units. Because of this last point, I believe Rhinos themselves deserve to be hit with a mild nerf and higher tech level options should be buffed so Sov players actually consider mixing in Apocs or something. 

[ReaperAA]

12 hours ago, thisfieldisrequired said:

Good shit dude. I don't really like the whole "sov early game, allies late game" balancing act

Agreed with this. In a well balanced RTS, all factions are fairly even at all stages of the game. With one faction being stronger in early game and other being stronger in late game, you end up in a situation where one faction dominates on smaller maps (usually one with the better early game) and the other dominates on larger maps.

Also funny thing about Allied vs Soviet is that if SWs are enabled, Soviets are slightly stronger than Allied even in late game because of how OP the IC. Hence why I nerfed the IC time from 5 min to 6 min.
 

12 hours ago, thisfieldisrequired said:

I believe Rhinos themselves deserve to be hit with a mild nerf and higher tech level options should be buffed so Sov players actually consider mixing in Apocs or something. 

I actually thought about this at one point by nerfing Rhino HP from 400 to 380 (thus allowing Grizzlies/Lashers to kill them in one less shot).

 

But ultimately, I decided not to nerf Rhinos. Why? Because of Yuri. They are crucial against Yuri because no matter how much I buff Apocs, they would still suck against Yuri (outside of doing something controversial like giving them mind control immunity). Siege Choppers are also very situational and dependent on terrain (they shine on maps with many cliffs while are a waste of cash on plain maps).

[TK3600]

TBH my AI mod already addressed most of the balance problems.

[Huy Bunchhay]

On 5/4/2021 at 12:07 AM, Ezer_2000 said:

Allied player made this patch. Aliies uber-OP that's fucking obivious.

Yeah Robot Tank can go toe-to-toe against the so-called War-In-A-Can war machine Apocalypse Tank and might be the last one standing. Too overpowered.

[PrezSpammer]

For a future rebalance update, I would like to put in suggestions for making tweaks in regards to crates. The biggest drawback is the default setting where the number of crates that appear is based upon the maximum number of players a map allows. As such, on medium to large-sized maps, this creates a tendency for them to constantly appear in such obscure places and consequently, they're not utilized to their full potential... at least for those of us who know how to pick them up properly, that is. Is it possible to make a change so that the abundancy of crates that consistently appear on a map is more dependent on its size rather than on the number of players it can hold? Perhaps as another option, allow hosts to adjust the volume of crates that appear when they're enabled? Also, a significant majority of crates appear along the edges, which on some maps can put players in certain positions at a disadvantage. Is it also possible to look into making things so that they're more evenly distributed throughout maps?

Aside from ToE, I can only think of a handful of other official maps--Arena 33, Bermuda Triangle and Near Ore Far, where it's actually practical to use crates to their maximum ability, which is a huge letdown. It'd be great to be able to have that ToE-like experience on many more maps as well, especially being that we now have the No France/Yuri option in place. Another thing I'd like to suggest is changing the standard crate radius from 3 to 3.5 or maybe even 4 to make upgrading groups of infantry more feasible.

[Tutankhamun]

 

For some reason i realized that the yr patch 2.0 does not make any difference for dreadnought missiles and v3's missiles compared the old one. I have just made a GIF to make clear for what i was trying to tell for all the time. I hope this one solved.

 

Here I am now, bringing this issue to this community again. IT was the same for @[CC] RaVaGe and it's the same right now for you @burg93

We all do appreciate your precious unique work but this one might confuse some ppl 

as you can see the gif below, while patch is on is affected dread missiles, and the other hand off yr patch 2.0 doesn't affect it

the holy gif

Edited August 6, 2021 by Tutankhamun

[[CC] RaVaGe]

This was fixed in my previous patch.

[Moh_hunter264]

Alot of things also need changes too like:

Rhino: i think if they deserve slightly  increases more time to build, it's op but again it's the only good soviet unit so it shouldn't nerfed too much.

Flack trooper: no longer needs radar.

Terrorist: more hp and no longer do friendly fire to other Terrorist.

Tank destroyer: more dmg against infantry.

Demo truck: no more global announcement ( why would you give your opponent a chance to counter it?).

Battle fortress: by far the most frustrating unit in the whole game and 100% needs a nerf,for me decrease their speed ( make it like the mcv one) and decrease the dmg of the ggi inside of it, or increase their price.

Gi: decrease deployment dmg against building but increasing the undeployment one.

Tesla tank: make it able to attack while moving. 

Gab generator: limited to only 1.

Prism tank: she was fine and didn't need that buff, so i thing she needs a price increase to 1500$.

Grand cannon: slight range decrease.

Kirov: abit more speed &  hp decrease, their only use is like a meat shield.

Conscripts: price decrease to 75$ or slightly more atk speed ( they are using ppsh-41 you know how fast this thing fire).

Grizzly & lasher: time to build slightly decreased.

Apocalypse: price decrease to 1600$ with industrial plant this make her not a money waste anymore, i think the speed increase is way too much for her.

[XGalaxyZ]

Pretty sure Everyone. already patched to the latest patch? Either Way Rebalance Patch Should keep the Balanced Elite Rockets. The older ones Are too strong. Vs Buildings.  

On 6/18/2021 at 7:28 AM, ReaperAA said:

Another suggestion and this time regarding the Rocketeers. Rocketeers are fairly strong in AvA, okayish in AvY and pretty weak in AvS.

The suggestion is to change Rocketeer armor from none to flak. This change in armor makes zero difference in AvA (as all Allied AA weapon warheads deal equal damage to none and flak armor), a slight difference in AvY and makes the most difference in AvS (no longer a single flak track destroying a dozen rocketeer with ease).

But even with this change, the Soviet AA is still generally the strongest AA against Rocketeers (only that the difference isn't as huge anymore).

I Disagree. Totally with Buffing Rocketeers. These guys are easily spammable. And good with each promotion. Regardless. Of them being pretty strong in AvA They always had The most underpowered anti-air defence. Minus aegis cruisers.

[XGalaxyZ]

On 6/3/2021 at 9:16 PM, NizzyStorm said:

In RA3 the Apoc is also rarely used there apparently. 

At That game They were only good at Max Rank + vs AI I doubt soviets there swap their Hammer Tanks. for something far too expensive too slow And easily bribed/disabled Not to mention They take extra artillery damage there  

Edited August 16, 2021 by XGalaxyZ