Unanimous Change

[FlyingMustache]

3 hours ago, FReQuEnZy said:

Modifying the ELECTRIC warhead also modifies the Tesla Trooper and Tesla Coil which are fine as they are.
Causing the Tesla Coil and Trooper to counter only light armour makes them rather useless, even more so than they are now.

Yes, I'm aware. I simply created another warhead for just the tesla tank. This way the coil and trooper weren't affected.

[FlyingMustache]

3 hours ago, ZiGZaG said:

When i originally played ur MX maps this was my biggest issue with them especially the YR faction. I liked the fact you made other units like the chaos drone more useful, but i felt it made the fight against yuri much less tactical and much more like an ra2 themed smash and grab faction.

Well that's your opinion. To have Yuri utilize his brutes and clones more often seems natural to me, as opposed to the circus juggling act that doesn't take any skill. After all, it's the theme the game always pushes. Genetic mutation and mind control. Juggling is never referred to in any official explanation of Yuri.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

On 1/31/2018 at 7:22 AM, Legolas said:

the only foolish thing here is that you think MO is a balanced game. name me a few balances you think that are superior to YR current condition(obviously i don't want hear that yuri faction is not as op as in YR and also you can win a good foehn player with any faction)

Aw quit being such a faggot. like seriously. If you really wanna get into this debate, make your own thread for it. otherwise i'll just call you retarded for the rest of the times i see you, son.

Already you're an embarrassment. Don't dig this shithole further.

Edited February 1, 2018 by DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr

[PrezSpammer]

Just like with Weather Storm and Nukes, have there be a warning when Psychic Dominator is used but there might be problems executing this (no pun intended) due to the lack of proper voice-overs. 

The more and more overloaded a Mastermind becomes, the faster it loses life. If it overloads by 1, keep it the normal rate, by 2 twice as fast; if by 3 or more and have a green life bar, brings their life down to red, then blows up; instant death if they were in the yellow or red.

When using Ctrl-Shift with Flying Discs, they must stop to fire lasers. Only elites can fire on the move.

Kirovs gain 30% speed increase when elite.

Nerf garrisoned Initiates--far more powerful than garrisoned GIs.

Remove the overpowering Dolphin target glitch where they basically fire through an opposing unit dealing much more damage.

Clicking on a teammate's refinery or slave miner reveals how much money they have.

Apocs and Tesla Tanks fire on the move; Tank Destroyers and Mirages fire on the move if the opposing unit or defense structure is directly in front of it. Elite Rocketeers fire on the move.

Both Tesla units have the same range as when elite yet still fire at the normal rate but neither can do splash damage until elite.

Just like with garrisoned units, infantry inside BFs can earn promotions from kills--but they still must be outside to receive upgrades from crates.

[Korc]

hey whats up guys, make yuri's power cost 1000$, it is too strong being able to power an entire base with 5 initiates, saves a lot of time for Yuri; too much.

[XXxPrePxX]

1 hour ago, PrezSpammer said:

Just like with Weather Storm and Nukes, have there be a warning when Psychic Dominator is used but there might be problems executing this (no pun intended) due to the lack of proper voice-overs. 

The more and more overloaded a Mastermind becomes, the faster it loses life. If it overloads by 1, keep it the normal rate, by 2 twice as fast; if by 3 or more and have a green life bar, brings their life down to red, then blows up; instant death if they were in the yellow or red.

When using Ctrl-Shift with Flying Discs, they must stop to fire lasers. Only elites can fire on the move.

Kirovs gain 30% speed increase when elite.

Nerf garrisoned Initiates--far more powerful than garrisoned GIs.

Remove the overpowering Dolphin target glitch where they basically fire through an opposing unit dealing much more damage.

Clicking on a teammate's refinery or slave miner reveals how much money they have.

Apocs and Tesla Tanks fire on the move; Tank Destroyers and Mirages fire on the move if the opposing unit or defense structure is directly in front of it. Elite Rocketeers fire on the move.

Both Tesla units have the same range as when elite yet still fire at the normal rate but neither can do splash damage until elite.

Just like with garrisoned units, infantry inside BFs can earn promotions from kills--but they still must be outside to receive upgrades from crates.

Love these, except the elite rockies fire on the move... their too easy to get and dominate enough already. :p.

 

[Ferret]

6 hours ago, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

Aw quit being such a faggot. like seriously. If you really wanna get into this debate, make your own thread for it. otherwise i'll just call you retarded for the rest of the times i see you, son.

Already you're an embarrassment. Don't dig this shithole further.

Not tolerated here. See you in 5 days.

[DoDger]

8 hours ago, PrezSpammer said:

Clicking on a teammate's refinery or slave miner reveals how much money they have.

i actually like this one alot idk about transfering money to my ally but to be able to know how much they got without asking everytime helps in some situations

[FlyingMustache]

On 2/1/2018 at 8:13 PM, PrezSpammer said:

Just like with Weather Storm and Nukes, have there be a warning when Psychic Dominator is used but there might be problems executing this (no pun intended) due to the lack of proper voice-overs. 

The more and more overloaded a Mastermind becomes, the faster it loses life. If it overloads by 1, keep it the normal rate, by 2 twice as fast; if by 3 or more and have a green life bar, brings their life down to red, then blows up; instant death if they were in the yellow or red.

When using Ctrl-Shift with Flying Discs, they must stop to fire lasers. Only elites can fire on the move.

Kirovs gain 30% speed increase when elite.

Nerf garrisoned Initiates--far more powerful than garrisoned GIs.

Remove the overpowering Dolphin target glitch where they basically fire through an opposing unit dealing much more damage.

Clicking on a teammate's refinery or slave miner reveals how much money they have.

Apocs and Tesla Tanks fire on the move; Tank Destroyers and Mirages fire on the move if the opposing unit or defense structure is directly in front of it. Elite Rocketeers fire on the move.

Both Tesla units have the same range as when elite yet still fire at the normal rate but neither can do splash damage until elite.

Just like with garrisoned units, infantry inside BFs can earn promotions from kills--but they still must be outside to receive upgrades from crates.

Several of these I had planned for MX. I'm going with choice that are unanimous. Or at least mostly unanimous. So far, it only seems like the magnetron cliff limitation is the only one. I'll put that in UC.

[Smootherized]

Hello guys,
I am new to this forum as you can see, but I really like the discussion going on here and I really like this game. Even though I can also claim I have played this game since 1984, I have to admit: I have never played it at the top level, I have never won any tournaments and while I think I understand the fundamentals, I am in no way a RA2 guru. My knowledge of the high-level play comes mainly from watching replays and videos. But! "Pro" players are just a tip of the iceberg and you have to pay attention to us, the noobs, if you want to have a game that is played by more than a few people. Now that I introduced myself, here are my points, meant purely as food for thought, as I don't have any experience with balancing RA2 or YR.

1) When 2 or more units compete for the same slot in players' arsenal, the only way to make them balanced (in terms of being used in a similar % of the games) is to make them exactly the same. If you make units with different stats, one will inevitably be better than the other in most of the games. You should be OK with one of the units being used only as a niche in a small amount of games (certain maps, certain enemies, as counters to certain units etc). That said:

2) Tesla Trooper. You say this unit is used in 1/10 of all games? Maybe 1/15? Good! Honestly, you rarely get better balance than that. Incremental improvements to the unit probably won't have a visible effect, until you cross a certain threshold and it becomes so good that it replaces some other unit as a backbone of an army. I think Tesla Trooper has its comfortable niche right now, even though the "cool factor" of the unit makes us want to see it more.

3) Tesla Tank. Balancing Tesla Tank around Rhino doesn't really make much sense to me (ofc I might be wrong), because it doesn't compete for its slot with the tank. Or with some other war factory units. It competes with the Desolator as they are mutually exclusive (unless you are making a mod where all unique units are available to all nations). So ask yourselves: How strong would Tesla Tank need to be to outweigh Desolator's utility? Pretty OP, I guess. So balancing Tesla Tank would need some deeper changes to many more units and/or game mechanics. You can replace every instance of "Tesla Tank" in this section by any other Soviet unique unit's name, I guess. We talk about Tesla Tank more only because it is a cool unit, as opposed to Terrorist and the Libyan Family Frost truck.

4) Apocalypse Tank. Basically the same as 2). Making it shoot while moving would make it much better, of course, which wouldn't be a bad thing - high tech units should be obviously better than low tech, given the investment. But: It still has its uses and changing it could create other problems. I would love to see it buffed a slight tiny little bit, so I don't see Soviets spamming Rhino tanks for 40 minutes, but that could be just my personal bias. At least it has the cool image of a slow-moving fortress which has to stop to unload those shots. Which reminds me, I don't like the actual Battle Fortress. It does too many things too well. But this seems to be only my personal problem, it doesn't seem to be unbalanced, I guess.

5) Chronosphere and Iron Curtain. Given the tools Allies already have at their disposal for late game, would it really help if Chronosphere would be on a 5-minute timer? If you argue that Chronosphere doesn't have much use in 1v1, it is a problem of utility, not the timer. Putting it to a 5-minute timer wouldn't fix that, it would just make the Chronosphere OP for matches where it matters. Iron Curtain is strong, yes. Would I mind seeing it nerfed to 6-7 minutes?  I wouldn't mind, many other players probably wouldn't either, but it is true it might affect the high-level Soviet vs Yuri game in a bad way. So I wouldn't pick it as my biggest issue.

What is the thing I would pick then? Something about Yuri. I understand it should have a unique play style and I understand it should be rewarding when played properly. Every nation does things well when in good hands, but I feel like Yuri is doing a bit too much even if you learn only the simplest tricks. Having arguably the strongest superweapon might be solved simply by turning superweapons off, but (as many players here pointed out) superweapons are often the only counter for Yuri. Having the most punishing "cheese" tactics, especially with Magnetron, doesn't help either, not mentioning the navy. I am not saying Yuri cannot be defeated or that everything he does is OP. I, as an average player, just find him too annoying and yes, that is a factor, when you make a game.

So one single change I would love to see is a button in game lobby, which can be used by the host to disallow picking Yuri. Please, save comments like "Go and play regular RA2 if you don't like Yuri" for some other time. I like the new units and changes to Soviets and Allies that YR brought, I just think that Yuri, in its current state (not much effort went into designing and balancing him) should have stayed as a campaign villain only, maybe with some modded maps allowing him. Adding a button to disable him in lobby would save at least some effort of kicking people, because balancing him is probably beyond "one unanimous change". But i guess this is more of a suggestion to CnCNet client creators, not to guys modding maps for fun, right?

Edit: Red Alert 2 button in lobby doesn't do what I mean, unfortunately.

TL;DR: Nerf Yuri. Not much, just nerf/remove some of the most annoying things he does. Or delete him. That would enable you to nerf IC and that in turn would allow you to slightly buff Apocalypse tanks.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Smootherized
New info from a fellow player.

[TK3600]

5 hours ago, Smootherized said:

Hello guys,
I am new to this forum as you can see, but I really like the discussion going on here and I really like this game. Even though I can also claim I have played this game since 1984, I have to admit: I have never played it at the top level, I have never won any tournaments and while I think I understand the fundamentals, I am in no way a RA2 guru. My knowledge of the high-level play comes mainly from watching replays and videos. But! "Pro" players are just a tip of the iceberg and you have to pay attention to us, the noobs, if you want to have a game that is played by more than a few people. Now that I introduced myself, here are my points, meant purely as food for thought, as I don't have any experience with balancing RA2 or YR.

1) When 2 or more units compete for the same slot in players' arsenal, the only way to make them balanced (in terms of being used in a similar % of the games) is to make them exactly the same. If you make units with different stats, one will inevitably be better than the other in most of the games. You should be OK with one of the units being used only as a niche in a small amount of games (certain maps, certain enemies, as counters to certain units etc). That said:

2) Tesla Trooper. You say this unit is used in 1/10 of all games? Maybe 1/15? Good! Honestly, you rarely get better balance than that. Incremental improvements to the unit probably won't have a visible effect, until you cross a certain threshold and it becomes so good that it replaces some other unit as a backbone of an army. I think Tesla Trooper has its comfortable niche right now, even though the "cool factor" of the unit makes us want to see it more.

3) Tesla Tank. Balancing Tesla Tank around Rhino doesn't really make much sense to me (ofc I might be wrong), because it doesn't compete for its slot with the tank. Or with some other war factory units. It competes with the Desolator as they are mutually exclusive (unless you are making a mod where all unique units are available to all nations). So ask yourselves: How strong would Tesla Tank need to be to outweigh Desolator's utility? Pretty OP, I guess. So balancing Tesla Tank would need some deeper changes to many more units and/or game mechanics. You can replace every instance of "Tesla Tank" in this section by any other Soviet unique unit's name, I guess. We talk about Tesla Tank more only because it is a cool unit, as opposed to Terrorist and the Libyan Family Frost truck.

4) Apocalypse Tank. Basically the same as 2). Making it shoot while moving would make it much better, of course, which wouldn't be a bad thing - high tech units should be obviously better than low tech, given the investment. But: It still has its uses and changing it could create other problems. I would love to see it buffed a slight tiny little bit, so I don't see Soviets spamming Rhino tanks for 40 minutes, but that could be just my personal bias. At least it has the cool image of a slow-moving fortress which has to stop to unload those shots. Which reminds me, I don't like the actual Battle Fortress. It does too many things too well. But this seems to be only my personal problem, it doesn't seem to be unbalanced, I guess.

5) Chronosphere and Iron Curtain. Given the tools Allies already have at their disposal for late game, would it really help if Chronosphere would be on a 5-minute timer? If you argue that Chronosphere doesn't have much use in 1v1, it is a problem of utility, not the timer. Putting it to a 5-minute timer wouldn't fix that, it would just make the Chronosphere OP for matches where it matters. Iron Curtain is strong, yes. Would I mind seeing it nerfed to 6-7 minutes?  I wouldn't mind, many other players probably wouldn't either, but it is true it might affect the high-level Soviet vs Yuri game in a bad way. So I wouldn't pick it as my biggest issue.

What is the thing I would pick then? Something about Yuri. I understand it should have a unique play style and I understand it should be rewarding when played properly. Every nation does things well when in good hands, but I feel like Yuri is doing a bit too much even if you learn only the simplest tricks. Having arguably the strongest superweapon might be solved simply by turning superweapons off, but (as many players here pointed out) superweapons are often the only counter for Yuri. Having the most punishing "cheese" tactics, especially with Magnetron, doesn't help either, not mentioning the navy. I am not saying Yuri cannot be defeated or that everything he does is OP. I, as an average player, just find him too annoying and yes, that is a factor, when you make a game.

So one single change I would love to see is a button in game lobby, which can be used by the host to disallow picking Yuri. Please, save comments like "Go and play regular RA2 if you don't like Yuri" for some other time. I like the new units and changes to Soviets and Allies that YR brought, I just think that Yuri, in its current state (not much effort went into designing and balancing him) should have stayed as a campaign villain only, maybe with some modded maps allowing him. Adding a button to disable him in lobby would save at least some effort of kicking people, because balancing him is probably beyond "one unanimous change". But i guess this is more of a suggestion to CnCNet client creators, not to guys modding maps for fun, right?

Edit: Red Alert 2 button in lobby doesn't do what I mean, unfortunately.

TL;DR: Nerf Yuri. Not much, just nerf/remove some of the most annoying things he does. Or delete him. That would enable you to nerf IC and that in turn would allow you to slightly buff Apocalypse tanks.

1) Niche is the key. The entire design of RA2 is asymmetrical. Some unit's niche is way too small, not even close. I believe with enough effort there can be a fairly balanced arsenal.

2) Tesla trooper's speed make it destined to not used offensively. It can only zone tanks out. Right now it is only used when desperate or charge tesla coil. I think with same range of grizzly it will do fine.

3) You are definitely right, nation unique units are competing for each other, not regular one. Just some of us think Tesla tank fully replace Rhino is too much as an upper limit. But you can make a counter argument of Tesla tank's tech requirement and loss of desolator.

4) Right now apoc is mostly used with deso. For a high tier unit it is barely better than Rhino. I agree. You are going to like my mod haha, apocalypse fire on move!

5) No comment, SW is a very intricate balance.

6) With a few exceptions Yuri is alright. Garrisoned initiate deal absurd amount of damage. Mastermind fires 2X faster than GI. I am conflicted on magnetron. It is a one trick, and environmental kill is all or nothing, no nerf is possible without remove it. As a siege weapon it sucks so bad. Mutate slaves is cheesy, but same can be said for chronosphere tanks to water. I fear overnerf can be too much for highest level.

[Grant]

By all means you guys can easily make a modification and call it what you like, and apply these new rules, as it can easily work on CnCNet like the other mods we support, but as far integrating balance changes into the official standard Yuri's Revenge, we won't be doing that just to be clear. 

The mods can also be added to the ladder if that's desired.

[ZiGZaG]

18 hours ago, Smootherized said:

 I have played this game since 1984.

You must have played the ultra beta. 16 years before the game was released lol

[Turky22]

1 hour ago, ZiGZaG said:

You must have played the ultra beta. 16 years before the game was released lol

I had a good giggle when I saw that as well lol 

[ZiGZaG]

59 minutes ago, Turky22 said:

I had a good giggle when I saw that as well lol 

Either that or he used Albert Einstein's chronosphere to go back in time and forever alter the course of history... 

Edited February 5, 2018 by ZiGZaG

[Smootherized]

1 hour ago, Turky22 said:

I had a good giggle when I saw that as well lol 

Giggles was the point. I was just referring to some other people claiming to have vast experience with the game. I wasn't even born in 1984, to be honest.

And yes, increasing the range of Tesla Troopers seems like a fine way to make them appear more often as a defensive tool, but I have one question for more experienced players in this case: Wouldn't it make defending using only barracks units a bit too easy, so Soviets could just go for 2 miners from War Factory every time without any fear? I am not saying it would surely cause that, it is more of a question than a suggestion.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

An IFV seal rush would still take them out, a group of dogs are more effective against infantry and can keep up with tanks too which makes defending with Tesla Troopers quite micro intensive.

[FlyingMustache]

1 hour ago, FReQuEnZy said:

An IFV seal rush would still take them out, a group of dogs are more effective against infantry and can keep up with tanks too which makes defending with Tesla Troopers quite micro intensive.

This. A good press with rhinos and anti infantry can still win, even with the increased range. It just depends who played better.

[Gun_Man]

I'd like to reiterate something i think smootherized was trying to point out.  Not all units need to be edited.  In the case of tesla troopers - if you don't think it's a good idea to build those to defend your base, then don't.  Replying to someone's case with a "u can just..." is something one could do to any perceived imbalance in the game.

This is because EVERY unit in this game has a counter.  But, I think the units that have limited counters which force a player to choose a certain country,  like the mag which forces soviets to want to take iraq, should be edited.

[TK3600]

4 hours ago, FReQuEnZy said:

An IFV seal rush would still take them out, a group of dogs are more effective against infantry and can keep up with tanks too which makes defending with Tesla Troopers quite micro intensive.

Not to say desolator, sniper, virus eat them for dinner and are available before battle lab. By the time base gets large there will be no mobility against tank harassment. By late game tesla trooper is useless unlike Rhino.

[FlyingMustache]

4 hours ago, Gun_Man said:

- if you don't think it's a good idea to build those to defend your base, then don't. 

That's exactly the point people are bringing up about Tesla troopers. The game pushes this notion, but they're not actually good at their designated role. Anyway, the point of this post is for something everyone can agree on. Or at least mostly.

[Lud0wig]

Maybe I should start to put Tesla Troopers in Flak Tracks to support my tanks lol

[Smootherized]

9 hours ago, Gun_Man said:

I'd like to reiterate something i think smootherized was trying to point out.  Not all units need to be edited.  In the case of tesla troopers - if you don't think it's a good idea to build those to defend your base, then don't.  Replying to someone's case with a "u can just..." is something one could do to any perceived imbalance in the game.

This is because EVERY unit in this game has a counter.  But, I think the units that have limited counters which force a player to choose a certain country,  like the mag which forces soviets to want to take iraq, should be edited.

Yes, that was my point. But if increaing Tesla Troopers' range means they will be played in let's say 5/10 games instead of 1/10 (and not 10/10), then go for it, that would be a great result.

The second part is true, but there is another way of looking at it: For me, Soviets = Iraq. No matter how many times Tesla Tank gets reasonably buffed, Iraq will be picked over Russia anytime, because of the utility of Desolators. Even if you nerf Mags, Deso is still good in so many situations. So while for Allies the national units are mostly just a supporting act for the player's induvidual playstyle (I don't mean they are weak), the Desolator is a defining feature for Soviets. Fixing this would require a major rework of Soviet national units, which I guess is a story for another time. But I admit it would be refreshing. In my eyes not necessary, but refreshing.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

1 hour ago, Smootherized said:

 For me, Soviets = Iraq. No matter how many times Tesla Tank gets reasonably buffed, Iraq will be picked over Russia anytime, because of the utility of Desolators. Even if you nerf Mags, Deso is still good in so many situations. 

Yet in my balancing of the Tesla Tank it takes out Battle Fortresses with ease and most other Yuri units with 1 hit, which makes Russia more preferable as the Desolator does not see much use against Allied due to the addition of the Seal.

[TK3600]

36 minutes ago, FReQuEnZy said:

Yet in my balancing of the Tesla Tank it takes out Battle Fortresses with ease and most other Yuri units with 1 hit, which makes Russia more preferable as the Desolator does not see much use against Allied due to the addition of the Seal.

I am not much of a PvP pro but I thought deso bomb is a counter to mirage tanks and prism tanks.