Lets talk about noobs

[heldro]

So there is alot of people playing this game on cncnet. at sundays the player number can reach 300 online at the same time. yet almost all of these players are noobs and will probably never get much better. i rarely encounter new players playing official maps without crates, or noobs who have improved. sometimes you let people in your games you dont know and u hope they arent total noobs but in 99% of the cases your fears get reality when you see them spamming ggi's and a having no idea how to build up a proper base. they then prolly say something in the lines of "money cheater" or "noob rusher" and leave the game go back to their usual rekool and sedona crates maps. 

But why do they like this noob style much so much and why are they not interested to play the game how it was meant to be played? they seem to be so intimidated playing official maps with normal settings that they choose the easy way out playing maps where economy management is not required and neither is micro'ing ur units in most cases. i used to think that people who play official maps with normal settings are interested in the competative aspect of the game while players playing noob maps just want to play simicity and see epic battles of 200 vs 200 units. but then i noticed that some of these noob players had evolved into somewhat mastering these noob maps and legitally thinking they were "pro" and them being just a competative. so when you go ahead join them and beat them they will call u a cheater and ban u from their games. so in their eyes they are still the best players since whenever they get defeated by a technically better player they just tell themselves they are cheaters, this way they will keep avoiding better players and never improve their game.

so there are different gradations of noobs in my eyes

- you got the rekool afghan map noobs: these noobs play maps where the most of the map is made of gems and every spawn will usually give spy sat, nuclear reactor, oils and maybe even more to ease your start. these noobs are the worst. they play a map that defies everything how the game is supposed to be played. there is no need to manage ur economy because its unlimited, no way to take control of the map because all u need is in ur base, no need to defend urself from the start because ur spawn is usally a castle. these maps seem to be the most populair since everybody can play it. the noobs who mastered these figured out that the best way to win is to make alot of warfacs and click building new units faster as ur opponent does.

- then you have the sedona, tour of egypt & tsunami noobs. these players do like their unit spam but not as much ad the rekool afghan noobs. they heavily rely on their crates  (and or extra starting credits) and they will consider any attack before 5 - 10 minutes into the game "lame noob rush" so these players have somewhat evolved into learning how to use different units and how to micro them but they still lack any form of proper economy management and map control since crates are their primary form of income and rushing is not allowed. the noobs who mastered these kind of maps will usually build a big castle with large groups of units they promoted with crates.

- then you have the dune patrol noobs. these players do actually play official maps with normal settings, dune patrol in 90% of the cases, other popular maps are hidden valley, little big lake and blood feud. these players do have some sense of economy management and unit control. but their problem is they get tunnel visioned in these maps. these maps are very simplistic and require little tactical play. noobs who mastered these maps usually stick the the same build order that will win them most players. whenever a more experienced player beats them, instead of being interested to learn from them they call them nerd, noob, faggot and ban them. thus eliminating the need to improve their game. these noobs are the most interesting since they do try to play the game the way it was meant to be played but they are affraid to take on larger maps and better players because they need to go outside their comfort zone. 

 

so what do you guys think about these noobs, i think its a real shame that there is such a large playerbase but its all for nothing since most of them are too intimidated by official maps normal settings. they just dont want to leave their comfort zone and let themselves get schooled and actually improve their game and play the game how it was supposed to be played. 

is their any way we could get these players interested into playing official maps normal settings or are we actually the weirdo's liking our niche style of play and are we actually missing out in the fun of spamming units and building castles playing simcity.

 

[FlyingMustache]

Inviting them to voice chat definitely makes things easier with helping newer players. I've helped a handful of newer players by bringing them into Discord. It seems to me that once they chat and have a good down to Earth conversation with you, you can better understand each other. It just seems to me that reading in game chat and focusing on the actual game can be hard for some. I've had more success with players by giving real time voice tips than any typing I've ever done.

Also, that egotistical way veteran players look down on them and scrutinize them is not the way to go. They're people, not animals.

[DoDger]

i agree on most of what u said and that's the issue that this is a 17+ year old game and ppl still acting like 11 that's for the crying part but for the red zone toe rekool etc. part i think we all get carried away and miss the point of Playing game itself which is Fun we all hv our different idea of that for example i find it fun to play a competitive and do my best i don't rly care for the result afterward iam just having fun pushing myself to the limit or try new things but we all are not the same ever since i joined cncnet here which is the first time i play this game online i saw TOE crats game 2/2.5 years later i see the same ppl doing the same thing For me it's boring but for them it's fun i wanted to do some videos on how to became better at this game on my channel but i came across some issues while doing so but they can learn from watching games on utube or asking a better play for advise or join discord but we can't ignore the part that most skilled[ Not all ] don't hv time to even teach newer players they immediately kick or ban and start the trash talking

Edited January 30, 2018 by DoDger

[fir3w0rx]

I think their basic mentality is:

Why have fun later when I can have fun now?

[FlyingMustache]

5 minutes ago, fir3w0rx said:

I think their basic mentality is:

Why have fun later when I can have fun now?

Well I also think they're intimidated by the competitive scene. Can't blame them though, it's pretty trash lol.

[XXxPrePxX]

I've always thought about this, but the reality is that the community is broke.

You have extreme veterans who have played 10++ years on one hand... and they were built from competitive 1on1 games on high activity based ladders. They were able to get matches and compete and learn everything in a timely manner.

Now, you don't have those avenues to play competitively and it's extremely hard to start up.

If you were training a brand new player today, what would you tell them to do? You'd probably advise them to play competitive 1on1's on official maps, but who is playing that these days? The learning curve is borderline broken now.

To further illustrate the point, how do players combat the yuri faction 1on1? If their new, they've never been experienced to real competitive matches as allied/sov vs. Yuri and that is such a different game then normally played. They'll never have the real opportunity to learn this at this point.

 

Anyway, these players that CNCNet has brought back are just playing what's best available to them.. and that's these types of games. They learn from these games and that's what they know. If you want them to play competitively, you have to give them the ability to do so ... through a ladder system.

 

It's an interesting system since CNCNet brought back so many players/new players, but at the same time, there was no avenues to play competitively and the few veterans that stayed are basically a different animal compared to them.

Edited January 30, 2018 by XXxPrePxX

[XXxPrePxX]

To me, I think it has very little to do with the competitive scene. If these players were good enough (and we are assuming they enjoy the game very much to be playing it in 2018) they would have no problem facing off in the competitive scene.

There is just too big of a gap in skill level to overcome at this point in time when the avenues aren't there.

The only (very small) hope we'd have is for the ladder to gain mainstream appeal here through massive promotion. That way many new players join in at once. It would break if just a few joined in as the few would get stomped right out of the ladder (as that's how it happens now).

 

[heldro]

It baffles me most how they are not willing to improve their game. there are so many players living a a bubble thinking they are hardcore. and whenever someone more experienced joins them and beats them instead of thinking wow this guy is good i wanna play him more to improve my game and maybe defeat him after some time, they mostly get all frustrated call u noob, cheater, faggot, no life nerd, noob rusher etc and they will ban u.

Edited January 30, 2018 by heldro

[TK3600]

I think it is a good thing. In an old game with only veteran players the barrier of entry is high. Noob is needed to keep a causal playerbase and keep the game alive.

[FlyingMustache]

9 minutes ago, TK3600 said:

I think it is a good thing. In an old game with only veteran players the barrier of entry is high. Noob is needed to keep a causal playerbase and keep the game alive.

This is an interesting point. Did we ever consider that the huge amount of casual games isn't a bad thing? Maybe it doesn't cater to our favorite playstyle, but it keeps the player count high. PLus that always leaves potential for competitive players.

[XXxPrePxX]

29 minutes ago, FlyingMustache said:

This is an interesting point. Did we ever consider that the huge amount of casual games isn't a bad thing? Maybe it doesn't cater to our favorite playstyle, but it keeps the player count high. PLus that always leaves potential for competitive players.

There's no doubt that this is a great thing for the existence of the game. For sure. The level of mods, new maps, recordings in the past few years due to CNCNet and GR popularity has really been an amazing thing. It's not our right to tell people how to play the game or demand that they get better. However, if we want to reach the competitive spirit that us oldies are used to, then something more needs to be done to push these players in the direction otherwise we are stuck with FFGs for the remainder of existence.

It's just sad for some of us vets seeing this game gain popularity, but the skill level and competitive spirit dwindle to nothingness. :p.

 

The badge system always promoted YR players to play competitively back on WOL/XWIS lobby days.

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by XXxPrePxX

[FlyingMustache]

6 minutes ago, XXxPrePxX said:

There's no doubt that this is a great thing for the existence of the game. For sure. The level of mods, new maps, recordings in the past few years due to CNCNet and GR popularity has really been an amazing thing. It's not our right to tell people how to play the game or demand that they get better. However, if we want to reach the competitive spirit that us oldies are used to, then something more needs to be done to push these players in the direction otherwise we are stuck with FFGs for the remainder of existence.

It's just sad for some of us vets seeing this game gain popularity, but the skill level and competitive spirit dwindle to nothingness. :p.

 

The badge system always promoted YR players to play competitively back on WOL/XWIS lobby days.

 

Of course, but in my experience not many new players want to endure losing in the competitive scene over and over. Or even endure the toxicity of the veteran players.

[XXxPrePxX]

Just now, FlyingMustache said:

Of course, but in my experience not many new players want to endure losing in the competitive scene over and over. Or even endure the toxicity of the veteran players.

That's the point I was bringing up in my first post... the disparity in skill level is so huge these days due to a number of variables (few remaining veterans vs. the influx of brand new players due to CNCNet popularity with them). This really hampers any thought of a future revolution of new players and future competitive scene.

To combat this, you would need to mass advertise the QM system and create an incentive system (badges) and make QM something that new players can easily enjoy. This was the original thought behind CNCNet team and Frequenzy when we discussed map limits and limiting the number of QM maps to 12. The idea was to give the new players an easier learning curve.

However, the argument against that is that it would not help the new players much, rather, we just need an overwhelming amount of lower skilled players enjoying QM such that the veterans rise to the top and only need to compete against other veterans over time and the newbs can have highly competitive 1on1's in the ladder. This would create a learning environment and a very addictive environment for them.

It's the unfortunate place we are put in after 16+ years of this game operating :p. I thought there was hope which is why I spent a lot of time working on things, but now I can see it is hopeless. Which is why I am shocked that tournaments around here are so highly frowned upon. It's the only avenue to really compete and have fun for the veterans, but instead we have a very toxic community of veterans who don't really care.

[FlyingMustache]

The tournaments are frowned upon because there's no reason to do them. They're just arranged FFGs that are called "tournaments." It's all a facade that only encourages egotistical behavior. The toxicity is an element you're not taking into consideration. It's a dead game, and the toxic veterans don't help nurture the newer players.

[XXxPrePxX]

Just now, FlyingMustache said:

The tournaments are frowned upon because there's no reason to do them. They're just arranged FFGs that are called "tournaments." It's all a facade that only encourages egotistical behavior. The toxicity is an element you're not taking into consideration. It's a dead game, and the toxic veterans don't help nurture the newer players.

I would argue that there is reason to do them because there exists no other avenue to compete properly. You can call them FFGs, but if they are stipulated with a set of rules and have results that are recorded, they are no longer FFGs but competitions.

The reason to do them is the same reason many players compete on the ladders... to show of their skills and be the best.

Unfortunately, I appear to be in the very small minority on this as evident by failed tournaments. I would say that the top players have reached a spot where they 'know' everybody’s skill level and have no interest in gaining skill or competing with each other... exception being players like Matt/Max/Marsh who compete vigorously against anyone.

[FlyingMustache]

The ladders used to give badges, and the tournaments that were held by xwis actually gave a prize. The tournaments here are arranged FFGs because the rules they follow are the same ones that everyone does in the FFGs anyway. Except no prize. SW? No dog engie eat? The same maps thrown in? It's all the same. There's nothing special about them.

Here's a game pack I got back in the day from XWIS.

Edited January 30, 2018 by FlyingMustache

[XXxPrePxX]

I've received some prizes from XWIS back in the day, but prizes have been an afterthought on the ladder for over 5-8 years really (plus, was it really motivation for average player x to play on the ladder when they knew they won't get rank 1 aka a prize?).

Even money tournaments don't work out well, so I don't think it's the prizes that hold things up... it's the players.

[TK3600]

When it comes to it, it is due to lack of matchermaker system. If noob know they are fighting another noob, they will consider. But the other may be a pro playing for 15 years.

[ZiGZaG]

17 hours ago, FlyingMustache said:

The toxicity is an element you're not taking into consideration. It's a dead game, and the toxic veterans don't help nurture the newer players.

Sometimes this is true i used to notice this on XWIS it was pretty bad but i find 9/10 most arent willing to even listen.

Ive tried countless times to help better new players, some listen some wont, i think it all comes down to the individual's. It wouldnt take that long for a brand new player to be able to compete at a medium-high level aslong as they are willing.

 

Max is the best example of this. He came to ra2 from nowhere and 6 months later was fighting at the top of the ladder. Simply because he was willing to learn and put the effort in.

Over the last few years there has been a fair few players who have done a similair job and there are still some in the process of doing so. 

P.S

Shout out to adj4 who i reckon in time will become a great player. This guy challenges me to qm's everytime i go online, doesnt care if he loses, just trys and trys again and eventually he got a win. Everytime he loses he asks the question why did i lose? What was my mistake? Perseverance, willingness to learn and never giving up are the hallmarks of a great player and this guy has that in abundance.

Edited January 31, 2018 by ZiGZaG

[heldro]

3 hours ago, ZiGZaG said:

Shout out to adj4 who i reckon in time will become a great player. This guy challenges me to qm's everytime i go online, doesnt care if he loses, just trys and trys again and eventually he got a win. Everytime he loses he asks the question why did i lose? What was my mistake? Perseverance, willingness to learn and never giving up are the hallmarks of a great player and this guy has that in abundance.

same for yagger, he also wants to keep playing and practice

[VWWWWWWWWWWW]

12 hours ago, ZiGZaG said:

Max is the best example of this. He came to ra2 from nowhere and 6 months later was fighting at the top of the ladder. Simply because he was willing to learn and put the effort in.

Actually he played in like 2003/2004 but had just come back after being gone like 10 years so appeared to be "new"

[NoGameNoGame]

From all this ladder talk, I must ask, how do you guys find a ladder match? I literally queue up for 15 minutes and no match found. Is the ladder either like super empty or am I doing something horribly wrong?

[dkeeton]

28 minutes ago, NoGameNoGame said:

From all this ladder talk, I must ask, how do you guys find a ladder match? I literally queue up for 15 minutes and no match found. Is the ladder either like super empty or am I doing something horribly wrong?

It's highly dependent on the time of day that you try to play.  A fair number of QMs happen when both players agree in the original cncnet client or through discord to queue up for matches.

There is another feature of the QM client that might make it easier. The QM client will remove you from the queue when it detects that YR has started through the cncnet client and will put you back in the queue automatically after it detects that the game has ended. So you don't have to sit and stare at the QM while you wait, you can queue up and then go and play ffg's and some QM matches might happen in between the for-fun-games.

[AchromicWhite]

This is an interesting topic.

We have the same sort of issue in C&C95, and it's one that even exists in SC:BW and SCII.
So by no means is it just RA2.

The part where you talk about "a map that defies everything how the game is supposed to be played" pretty much sums up the issue.

Here's how I see it. Imagine that there are NOT any of these "money maps". What players are trying to do is to control a chaotic situation where they're worried about resources and the enemy units. They try to gather the resources and defend, but it's difficult, and more important, stressful.
Now, give that same person access to the editor, or at least the choice to play on a map made by someone with these stresses in mind;
The map chosen is to be one in which they fell will help them to have control over the chaotic situation... this ISN'T conscious. It's emotionally based. But games are a way of emulating the stress of life and then overcoming it (which is why some people get a this off of beating single player games over and over), in the case of C&C, the games are designed with multiple problems, which are meant to be all solved so that you can bring your full strategy about in order to take on (and hopefully defeat) your opponent.

So as you point out, by placing MORE things on a map, they actually TAKE from the game, and certainly crap on the design of those who made the game in the first place.

Of course, not everyone is on that level of awareness, or else they just didn't get a chance to play money maps and played on competitive maps (so money maps just seem like an abomination, without them knowing why. It feels unfair, enough though it's fair). For those that realise that it's an emulation, they take the challenge and enjoy it; knowing it's not real. Which probably explains the bans (because why would someone ban over something that they consider 'not real'?)

[ZiGZaG]

10 hours ago, VWWWWWWWWWWW said:

Actually he played in like 2003/2004 but had just come back after being gone like 10 years so appeared to be "new"

Ahh well i dont think he was as good/well known back then? Point still stands he did like 500+ games a month and was all of a sudden a top player.