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BluySY

Why is there no ladder for CNC TD like there was in the WW chat days

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I think it's hurt the game TBH, but I could be wrong...

Part of the issue now is that we've added LOADS of maps into the map pool, and it's arguable which ones are competitive. At least in the old WWchat days there was a short list, and any player with worth knew the maps... AND they could choose or see the slected map and not play on anything that was considered badly imbalanced.

Even the RA1's "pro" community has decided what maps are their top tier stuff, but it's worth noting that their top maps are literally mods (edited harvesters, AND ore). So those are more like StarCraft's "fastest money possible" and "Big Game Hunters", which are popular, but interestingly are laughed at by the serious competitive community of StarCraft.

I've talked about at least building some sort of system to file maps so that we could have something, but it always seems to devolve into bad blood (simply because people want things to be their way). And I get that.

 

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On 12/2/2017 at 8:38 AM, AchromicWhite said:

I think it's hurt the game TBH, but I could be wrong...

Part of the issue now is that we've added LOADS of maps into the map pool, and it's arguable which ones are competitive. At least in the old WWchat days there was a short list, and any player with worth knew the maps... AND they could choose or see the slected map and not play on anything that was considered badly imbalanced.

Even the RA1's "pro" community has decided what maps are their top tier stuff, but it's worth noting that their top maps are literally mods (edited harvesters, AND ore). So those are more like StarCraft's "fastest money possible" and "Big Game Hunters", which are popular, but interestingly are laughed at by the serious competitive community of StarCraft.

I've talked about at least building some sort of system to file maps so that we could have something, but it always seems to devolve into bad blood (simply because people want things to be their way). And I get that.

 

Let anyone choose whatever map they like, the other person doesn't have to agree to playing a ranked match on the map if they feel its unfair. Problem solved?

I think freedom for people to choose their maps and whether they want a ranked game is a must.

There is no set of balanced maps in existence, your maps favor GDI for the most part for example, and most of them dont cater for bottom advantage or right advantage

Otherwise some tyrant will force what they want onto everyone else. When no one wants that.

Democracy not dictatorship all agree? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few!

What you think?

 

 

Edited by chem

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On 12/2/2017 at 4:55 AM, Ferret said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thats it get involved! :D

I cannot believe the CNC1 mods here white and ferret dont even like cnc1 its a disgrace.

Ferret  tries to dictate rules on how we play and leaves in a huff if he gets buggied,  he thinks he is a superior intellect because he learned some hotkeys and spams meds and naders but yet cant handle cheese rushes, and he even made a mod instead of developing the skill to defend the cheese. Yes you can defend it and yes it is more strategic and in depth once you do. You dont need to make a mod with overpowered troops for that, you need to have the skill to stop cheese and it gets really diverse and strategic at least on cnc1 it does

White tries to change peoples map/game preferences to his and tries to dictate rules of play,  he plays more starcraft than cnc1 u barely ever see him, and he just trolls people in the community that dont play the way he likes or leaves in a huff after he gets buggied, he also tries to import star crap into our cnc like EA did!

Jacko made his own mod  cause he doesn't like cnc1 he literally said I hate this game so much last time we played xD he doesn't like the game and tries to dictate how you play its ridiculous he spends way more time on other games, is hardly ever on cnc1

Why are these guys running the show when they don't play or like the game and spend their time on other games or being negative to us having fun on cnc1?

 

I think these guys should be hired by EA to make the new command and conquer

Drops mic

 

 

 

Edited by chem
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On 12/2/2017 at 4:55 AM, Ferret said:

:((((

:(

Im sorry ferret I forgot to take my meds your sad makes me sad

 

I wanted to get into an argument for some reason I felt all riled up from the ladder suggestion I dont know what came over me I just started attacking for no reason like I do with helis. stupid human ego, its the folly of man!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im sorry :((((

lethargic-ferret_vfgwvp.jpg

Edited by chem
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To Chem,

It is not simply Democracy vs dictatorship. I personally don’t like that attitude that assumes “just because we played our game in the 90s, We have the final word.” You gotta think about more openly. You still have the mentality of ww days. This mentality of WW days almost killed TS for all new comers at one stage and still an issue. Large chunk of new players are from the new generations. They opened their eyes to the new age games. They are coming from games that are religiously balanced with ranking system that are fair and just. CNCNET is ambitious enough to advertise their games to this kind of population. My point of view is that the ranking system should not be a turn off for new comers ‘the future gamers’. 

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56 minutes ago, BluySY said:

I only got one question ??? what is cheese ???? lol

Thats a good question, I think they mean anything that's low in skill and high in effectiveness

e.g.

buggie rushes

bike rushes

all out rushes where u sell your con yard

appachi rushes

engie rushes

Apache nuke combos

 

so the core of what makes nod effective is not allowed lol

 

I think you could make the same argument for med tank spam, mammoth spam,  gdi turtling,  nader spam, hum vee spam, etc but GDI players can do what they like apparently and its all skillful

 

 

Edited by chem

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2 hours ago, Assist said:

To Chem,

It is not simply Democracy vs dictatorship. I personally don’t like that attitude that assumes “just because we played our game in the 90s, We have the final word.” You gotta think about more openly. You still have the mentality of ww days. This mentality of WW days almost killed TS for all new comers at one stage and still an issue. Large chunk of new players are from the new generations. They opened their eyes to the new age games. They are coming from games that are religiously balanced with ranking system that are fair and just. CNCNET is ambitious enough to advertise their games to this kind of population. My point of view is that the ranking system should not be a turn off for new comers ‘the future gamers’. 

 

You make a great point.

Thats why if you leave it free like a democracy it caters to EVERYONE, it caters to all players new and old, it caters to big numbers of people/the success of cnc.net

 

Old players can play on marooned with 5000 credits for their ranked matches

Players that like modern games can play on specially made ultra fair tournament maps with 1000 credits

"Big appetite" players can play on mega tiberium maps for their ranked matches

etc etc

That way everyone can do what they like and no one is cut out by someone else.

The whole point is you dont have to play a ranked match if you dont feel its fair, you only play if you find the settings acceptable, you dont have to check that ready box unless you want to

 

Otherwise only 1 option is available to everyone meaning 2 or more big groups get cut out of the fun, mr buggies and lovehandles wont be able to play ranked matches on the maps they have mastered since 1993 ie the originals,  me and sep wont be able to use our high tiberium HJK like skill sets, and/or white wont be able to use his unbalanced, unused, GDI bias cheat maps.

 

I say let everyone use what they want just have a tick box for ranked games then every1 is catered for no one is excluded! Lastly its more simple and easy for the cnc.net staff to implement.

 

Edited by chem

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There's too much ego-tripping and game-dodging even without a ladder. I don't think one would make things better or draw in more players. Tournaments seem like a better option, but then you'll definitely have to have a limited map pool, fixed resolution, etc. The main problems are:

A) we lack the player base and games count to derive any meaningful statistics on what maps are actually balanced enough to include them in a pool;

B) we lack the tools to record such statistics, unless we all write down details of how all of our games go, which borders on science fiction;

C) it's all hard to do. 

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1 hour ago, cn2mc said:

There's too much ego-tripping and game-dodging even without a ladder. I don't think one would make things better or draw in more players. Tournaments seem like a better option, but then you'll definitely have to have a limited map pool, fixed resolution, etc. The main problems are:

A) we lack the player base and games count to derive any meaningful statistics on what maps are actually balanced enough to include them in a pool;

B) we lack the tools to record such statistics, unless we all write down details of how all of our games go, which borders on science fiction;

C) it's all hard to do. 

Partially agree with 1st statement but also the ego wars is kinda fun even if it is negative and bad sometimes, I never dodge anyone ever, most dont I think? Only the cowards!  I like playing better guys than myself I think its a privilege

A) Base it mainly on who beats who its just an estimate and that is a fairly good indicator?

B) Its been done on RA1 already or is about to be done I believe?

C) It can be but it doesn't have to be ?

 

I agree that if it creates a situation where the best dont want to fight each other out of fear of losing rank that would be lame, like you said its bad enough already with white banning ppl from a game when there are so few ppl, so possibly it could make the game worse, is a fair point

 

 

Edited by chem

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Even if you say that people can choose to NOT play against someone on a map... you can HIDE things on a map. So you could make a duplicate map with extra structures to capture and walls and what not.
So, no. It doesn't really solve it.

Nor does 2 people agreeing to play on a map make the map fair; it just means that at least one person might not know that a map is bias. (that makes a ladder even more unfair on new players).

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32 minutes ago, AchromicWhite said:

Even if you say that people can choose to NOT play against someone on a map... you can HIDE things on a map. So you could make a duplicate map with extra structures to capture and walls and what not.
So, no. It doesn't really solve it.

Nor does 2 people agreeing to play on a map make the map fair; it just means that at least one person might not know that a map is bias. (that makes a ladder even more unfair on new players).

 

1) The cheating of map making is possible but so are other forms of cheating like making it go out of sync if you are losing, pulling the plug, making a GDI bias map or a top left disadvantage map etc etc it goes on and on,  we cant make it cheat proof full stop, we shouldnt let cheats stop us having fun, and I dont think it matters that much we are blessed with a community of non cheaters esp in cnc1, none of the pros really cheat, and we have awesome talented staff that seem to be able to keep it cheat and hack free unlike in other online games

2) If the other person doesn't know the map they don't agree to a duel, simple, they know if they know it they dont have to play unless theve practiced it a few times, other knowledge just goes with the territory of being a noob, they dont know about other important winning details either

 

You are grasping at straws here, as I believe you want your maps to be the maps played for the ranking/tournament,  ud be forcing maps people dont like on everyone and maps that are not good enough to be tournament maps ie they are unbalanced and GDI bias, are you really ok with forcing what you want on everyone else, despite them not liking it, are you that selfish that much of an a-hole?

 

THE ANSWER IS YES!

 

(I remember you saying "who are they" they dont matter when I referred to the majority of people on here, I cant believe they let you be a mod)

 

Edited by chem

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No. You don't understand...

Say I asked to play you on Blistering Sands... you know the map, know it's pretty well balanced and accept...
But, unknown to you, I placed 2 con yards in the top right corner... it's an edited version with the same name!
So I walk 2 engies up and and BINGO I'm 4000 richer! (structures don't show on the minimap)

OR
Say you're new to the game and don't know what's fair... and I just pick a totally open map with no terrain. Poor bugger is trying to play GDI vs Nod on a massive map. I just make buggies and insta GG him.
He didn't know better. And now, because he didn't know the map, he loses his ladder points. How can a game be fair if it's only the newest of players to be involved with the design of fair maps (as they'd be picking them).

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35 minutes ago, AchromicWhite said:

No. You don't understand...

Say I asked to play you on Blistering Sands... you know the map, know it's pretty well balanced and accept...
But, unknown to you, I placed 2 con yards in the top right corner... it's an edited version with the same name!
So I walk 2 engies up and and BINGO I'm 4000 richer! (structures don't show on the minimap)

OR
Say you're new to the game and don't know what's fair... and I just pick a totally open map with no terrain. Poor bugger is trying to play GDI vs Nod on a massive map. I just make buggies and insta GG him.
He didn't know better. And now, because he didn't know the map, he loses his ladder points. How can a game be fair if it's only the newest of players to be involved with the design of fair maps (as they'd be picking them).

No I understand perfectly

 

It doesn't matter you could also just pull the plug if you are losing, or cause an out of sync you cant stop cheating period. But fortunately not much of it goes on so its not that big of an issue yet, also we have the ability to film a game and report it to a mod, we can see the map b4 we ready up etc etc

 

Well I dont know alot of things Jacko knows about the game much like the noob I have disadvantages too vs a more experienced/knowledgeable  player, thats part and parcel of being new or highly experienced, in short its not worth limiting the maps we can use and limiting the different types of players

Edited by chem

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I've just explained, twice, that the map preview DOESN'T show everything.

And if you had con yards hidden, and took them and sold them, your opponent would never know, would they?

 

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15 hours ago, AchromicWhite said:

I've just explained, twice, that the map preview DOESN'T show everything.

And if you had con yards hidden, and took them and sold them, your opponent would never know, would they?

 

It shows conyards!

You are grasping at straws.

You cant stop cheaters period, there are many other forms of cheating too,  so limiting maps is a pointless reduction of fun.

I cant see any of the pros any of us doing stuff like that, they never have before, and the ones that do it on red alert 1 tend to be trolls looking to get a rise, not pros.

If its one of your girly hints then yes some of my maps contain conyards and I would agree thats not a good map choice for 1v1 I meant them for FFA, although if both know where the conyards are in a 1v1 and its even distance then its still fair, also I tell everyone b4 a game that there are conyards usually(ive forgotten b4 but i wasnt cheating it just happens u forget u expect them to know etc) and oddly people for some reason completely ignore them its strange even when u tell them, so I never cheat ever, never have, cheating is for the low character types I wanna know I won for real if I won,  I dont wanna be a phony, the cheat still knows he cheats and he sucks, so he cheats himself . 

 

But anyway thats not the type of 1v1 I would like, Id like a straight forward test of skill on a simple map without the extras, something like twin peaks or as the rush comes is what id choose, and believe me I take no pride in that map I made it was a 3 minute job to force me to fight on a map better suited to troops and GDI players, its a map you dont have to learn and its so simple it really is your skill vs theres and not who knows the map the best, thats why I made it.

 

Id want it as simple as possible for a map so its your skill not your map knowledge thats being tested, the map also has to be fair to GDI and nod unless u r both the same side

Edited by chem

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It doesn't show structures. It's caught me out before... and I literally just looked at it now.

I'm sorry that you don't understand that 2 people agreeing to a map doesn't make it a 'fair map', because it's completely open to human error. If we wanted to make a fair ladder, we'd want to limit human error as much as we could. That's the POINT of a ladder. To have an official register of who's 'better' than who.
If it's not a fair ladder, then it's pointless.

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3 hours ago, AchromicWhite said:

It doesn't show structures. It's caught me out before... and I literally just looked at it now.

I'm sorry that you don't understand that 2 people agreeing to a map doesn't make it a 'fair map', because it's completely open to human error. If we wanted to make a fair ladder, we'd want to limit human error as much as we could. That's the POINT of a ladder. To have an official register of who's 'better' than who.
If it's not a fair ladder, then it's pointless.

I see ok I thought buildings show up on a preview,  I will take your word for it if they dont.

Ok you want to maximize fairness, where its possible, especially on the map. Both agreeing and liking the map doesn't make it fair fight if the map is bias in some way to one faction. Thats true.  Its a valid good view point.

Problem is your maps are not fair.

I think they are GDI bias.

I might be wrong but they have corridors granted medium width ones, they have a wall  around the base,  they have starting tiberium, they have easy to block entrances / areas on the map,  easy to defend tiberium patches when using naders/troops,  many of the maps are small taking away from speed advantages, I think all these things *together* make GDI very over powered on yoru maps, and I see uve made efforts to balance for nod but its not enough, uve just given GDI players a massive advantage. This isnt such a bad thing because there are loads of nod advantage maps around too, and also for low skill players its a good thing because GDI are harder to learn. But for a ladder game they are just gonna give the pro GDI player a big advantage.  

Secondly most dont cater for the ever important right side airfield advantage and the bottom advantage.  Which is a very simple basic must if you are going for optimal fairness in a ranked game.

Another point is, does anyone really know the game well enough to decide whats balanced or not for a map? If there is do they even make maps? I saw love handles beat mr buggies on Green aches which is a wide open map, with GDI! I presume they are close in ability, so are GDI really that disadvantaged? These 2 may not even play the 2 factions optimally so we dont really know how well the 2 sides balance at a highest level, because the game is very complex and varied. So how can we know which maps are fair or not fair? (It may get to the point that with enough skill the GDI faction becomes the better faction and its GDI thats overpowered not nod, who knows?)

Lastly some GDI players have all their skill development on a nod advantaged map, some people only play HJK like maps with GDI etc should we be testing who's best on a map they are not used to? Maybe they cant handle playing on a map that isnt filled to the brim with tiberium, or they cant handle anything that isnt classic.  That means all their ability and skill goes down the drain when they compete, skill isnt just a general thing its also a map specific thing, so do we really find the best player if one is used to classic maps and the other is used to your maps?  Or do we only find the best guy at that map? So how can that be fair?

 

 

Edited by chem

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GDI are only somewhat disadvantaged when the map is both open and impassable for troops / impossible to expand on because of too much tiberium. Otherwise they do well, proof are GA, other stock maps and Utah 2047, which is almost completely open and has been a multiplayer staple for 20+ years. The big point is: if GDI can't expand early on they have no way to deny Nod map control until much later. This can be played around but not always, it seems.

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I try to make my maps responsibly fair, but they're designed to maximise different strategies, more than anything else.

That's why we'd need a way to select a group of maps for ladder, or a filtering system; basically, a standard on how maps are made for competitive play. Which we tried to talk about before, until you completely derailed ALL the threads associated with such ideas and discussion.

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4 hours ago, AchromicWhite said:

I try to make my maps responsibly fair, but they're designed to maximise different strategies, more than anything else.

That's why we'd need a way to select a group of maps for ladder, or a filtering system; basically, a standard on how maps are made for competitive play. Which we tried to talk about before, until you completely derailed ALL the threads associated with such ideas and discussion.

The thread is pointless unless lovehandles answers it, because we are like a bunch of GCSE students discussing a degree level Topic, ie we are not on a high enough level to come to the right conclusions.  Also many are nod or GDI bias or play style bias, like Jacko is skilled enough to answer it but he is bias to a certain way of playing to you, and probably to GDI.

I think lovehandles is the key to getting that standard set.  I would like to know too. I dont want to make nod bias maps I want to make fair maps.

If you start the thread I wont derail it. I might not have an opinion you like but I will be constructive. The last thread you made was more about teaching people how to make maps while giving food for thought for map making its a bit off tangent for this topic it doesn't cut to the chase i asked a more specific simple thread hope you cncc2 and love handles answer it.

Will we ever get perhaps the best players like mr buggies whos probably mastered the classics like marooned etc since childhood to ever shift to maps that are not even part of the original game though?

Are we expecting too much from the overworked cnc.net crew are we lucky to just get a tick box for ranked matches? Then sort the rest ourselves?

Either way the thread could be highly beneficial for the community and for map makers. 

Edited by chem

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9 hours ago, cn2mc said:

GDI are only somewhat disadvantaged when the map is both open and impassable for troops / impossible to expand on because of too much tiberium. Otherwise they do well, proof are GA, other stock maps and Utah 2047, which is almost completely open and has been a multiplayer staple for 20+ years. The big point is: if GDI can't expand early on they have no way to deny Nod map control until much later. This can be played around but not always, it seems.

Thats what I thought I tend to give GDI some help, like I will give a starting wall and access with troops to the enemies base for example, then the map is usually wide open because of the ai, I think GDI are quite a strong side the game is already pretty well balanced and they  dont need too much help.

White gives GDI a massive host of advantages and I think its way too far. Making GDI overpowered.

Yous seem to think like me cnc2 in that GDI is pretty well balanced already and only needs a little help

 

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